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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:53 am 
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I totally agree with Bill about no spiking in the same turn as the guns are captured. I also feel that gun spiking shouldn't be automatic at 100%.

Maybe the probability should be only 25% on turn 2 and then 50% thereafter if any enemy within 5 hexes and LOS, or 75% if no visible enemy within that distance.

By the way Bill, are you contemplating requesting gun capture for the Nappy engine?

Brig. Gen. Rich White
3 Brig. Phantom Cav Div
III Corps ANV


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:58 am 
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Agree with the idea that units should not be able to spike guns if D'd. This shouldn't require much of a change as D'd units cannot initiate breastworks so it shouldn't be too hard to carry that over to spiking guns.


Gen. Ken Miller

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:51 am 
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I would support a delay of a turn in spiking the guns, but I firmly believe that the gun capture rule is still much better than the guns simply disappearing when they are captured. My research indicates that the spiking was most often done by the original crew and was very rarely done by the capturing force in the heat of battle. At Helena, the Confederates captured a battery only to find shot wedged in the bores of the guns. Apparently, there was a worm for removing the shot, but the Yankees had taken theirs with them when they abandoned the guns, and the Confederates had none. Loring, after the battle of Champion's Hill, mentions "destroying" all his artillery before leading his division through Yankee lines to safety. In other reports I recall reading about captured guns being turned on their former owners but can't recall any instance of guns being spiked in the heat of battle. At Devil's Den, Capt Smith ordered his men to carry off the sponges, rammer staffs, sponge buckets, friction primers and sights before abandoning his guns. I suspect this happened more often than spiking. These guns were never recaptured, but many guns that were temporarily captured at Gettysburg were recaptured and put back in service. Anyway, I think there ought to be a delay in being able to spike guns you just captured, and possibly some mechanism for unspiking. If there were separate crews, only they would be able to unspike guns, but I guess I'm getting ahead of myself. I feel Rich's captured gun rule isn't perfect, but it sure is a major step forward.

This is the second time I have heard of a No Melee Elimination rule. Can somebody who deals in Napoleonics please explain how it works for us poor souls who only have time for ACW?

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 2:44 pm 
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It is in the Shiloh game, I am not sure any other games have it yet as an option.

In the original post Bill said that they could be spiked during the same turn they are taken. I assume you are referring to playing in "Turn based" play (no phases), since I am pretty sure in phased play the guns can only be spiked in the movement phase. I don't remember if in phased play you can move into the hex and still execute the spike command.

Actually, spiking was one of many ways they could disable guns almost none of which are permanent. If they had the time they would take an axe to the wheels so the gun couldn't be removed from the field. Taking the implements for firing the gun was usually sufficient too assuming there weren't any gun crews looking for a job. Most methods including spiking could be repaired once the battle was over.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
III Corps, AoM (CSA)


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 7:27 pm 
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Guys,

I'll check into the programming complications of what your asking.

I don't like the non-disruption requirement. Units that melee are auto disrupted and may not recover for several turns. Just because they are not fully reformed, doesn't mean they can't follow orders to spike cannons.

It's certainly possible for cannons to be spiked in 20 minutes. After all, that could be the objective. Let's say a commander wants to neutralize a battery. He knows he can't hold the position, but a quick opportunistic charge could disable the guns and not allow the enemy to resuse them that same day in the heat of battle.

Just because you don't like it done to you doesn't mean you can't do the same.

In short, I feel guns could be spiked in 20 minutes and it could be done by disrupted troops with spiking as the objective.

At Waterloo, Ney's failed charge could have had the saving grace if somebody had thought to spike the guns before retreating.

The change in unit color has been fixed and was due to arty over stacking. I believe it only occured in 2D and had no real effect except in the color change.

BTW, the arty capture rule is optional and the spiking rule could be discussed before play without a program change.

Frankly, there are other things I'm trying to get done with a greater priority.

Rich

BTW, I just checked. spiking can only be done during the movement phase when using MDF.

And one more thing, captured arty can be fired the next turn and are worth full VPs. Spiked arty are only worth 1/2 VPs.


Capt. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 1:56 pm 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">2. Recrewing is allowed as per normal. That is the crew is NOT a separate unit but remans the guns after they have been recaptured.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I like this, in the current permutation of the game. Right now, if you capture the guns, you get the benefit of full unit fire as well as guns at half rate. I think it would be better to give the capturing player the option of remanning the guns just like the owning player has always been able to do, or leaving them uncrewed. Or spiking them, maybe with some penalty to fire strength in the ensuing fire phase to reflect the manpower needed to accomplish this task. As Rich has mentioned, spiking the guns reduces victory points by half, and in addition you have to physically occupy the guns at the end of the scenario to get any artillery points. Also, as Rich has pointed out, there are other improvements that are higher priority.



MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 2:36 pm 
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Hi Mike,

Just a quick clarification. The capturing player can turn and fire the guns at half strength and receive full VP if occupied at the end of the game.

The reason why we left off the remanning of captured guns by the capturing party and then move the guns off as normal was because, we deemed it unlikely that a capturing force could muster the necessary trained horses and other necessary items during the heat of battle. Remember we're not talking about one cannon, but many could be captured during a game. For example, the 20+ Bill mentioned when starting this post. So having trained artillerists and horses seemed a bit much during a battle.

Rich


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mihalik</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">2. Recrewing is allowed as per normal. That is the crew is NOT a separate unit but remans the guns after they have been recaptured.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I like this, in the current permutation of the game. Right now, if you capture the guns, you get the benefit of full unit fire as well as guns at half rate. I think it would be better to give the capturing player the option of remanning the guns just like the owning player has always been able to do, or leaving them uncrewed. Or spiking them, maybe with some penalty to fire strength in the ensuing fire phase to reflect the manpower needed to accomplish this task. As Rich has mentioned, spiking the guns reduces victory points by half, and in addition you have to physically occupy the guns at the end of the scenario to get any artillery points. Also, as Rich has pointed out, there are other improvements that are higher priority.



MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Capt. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:22 pm 
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Hi, Rich,

Good point.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:02 am 
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I had not encountered the new optional rule on spiking guns, so when I melee'd the stack, it was rather strange. My unit counter changed to tan on the map, and the guns were initially Captured, but I figured I'd try to spike them to see what that was like. It worked. Fewer VP's, but I wasn't likely to hold the ridge, as Bill had reinforcements marching quickly to that spot.

I would think that you'd need the following to Spike guns:

A - Undisrupted unit in the hex
B - X Movement points left, to represent the time it takes, especially in the single phase format, so you can't steamroll through, spike guns, and move another 4 hexes
C - Spiking counts as Firing, so you can't have a unit fire a volley and spike guns in the same turn - or perhaps a percentage reduction in firepower to representt he folks doing the spiking. Maybe this is a bit extreme...
D - possibly, spiking Disrupts unit - getting the regiment back into line and cohesive after a "messy" endeavor might take some time.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 12:41 pm 
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Those who stand still make easy targets.

I didn't realize a regiment of 3-400 men attacking an undefended arty battery only 100 yards away would take so long an effort. At 3 miles an hour, I can walk at least 1760 yards. Why couldn't a 3-400 man regiment scare off these poorly positioned artillerists and spike their guns.

What if fresh troops were to enter the hex after the melee but on the same turn, and spike the guns?

Bill,

I would agree that if a unit had to march it's maximum allowed distance, fire, melee a heavily defended hex and spike what could be a hex with 6 or more cannon tubes would be a difficult feat. But that example is only one possibility. We cannot equate all circumstances with the above mentioned.

When you say <i>"NO WAY,"</i> You must have a pretty good crystal ball that can not only look into the past, but also evaluate all possible circumstances. I certainly will not attempt to dispute such power.
:-) <vbg>

Now, my point is, KISS
K-Keep
I-It
S-Simple
S-Stupid

If we continue to try to anticipate every possible circumstance and create alternate rules, the learning curve will soon outdistance the rest of us simple minded individuals.

Now, the reason why I hesitate to allow only undisputed units to spike guns concerns the A/I. Until recently, the A/I would do nothing with captured artillery. However now, the A/I will always spike captured arty. If we create it so only undisputed units can spike, the A/I would not be able to spike guns in most circumstances. And despite the majority opinion concerning the A/I, I am still trying to improve the A/I. We forget that this board represents only a small fraction of HPS players. Therefore, I must assume, that a greater majority buy and play these games solitare. Just as I did with the BG games, for years until I found PBEM players.

So we must try to create games with all players in mind, not just those of you that have exceptional knowledge of ACW tactics and historical knowledge.

Please don't get me wrong. I will continue to strive to improve historical accuracy, but I will also continue to try to influence simplicity, playability, and FUN.

I used to play a game called Axis and Allies. Not very historically accurate, but I thought it was fun.

Personally, I feel that HPS offers the BEST and most historically accurate game of ACW regimental warfare on the market. And I want to keep it that way. So I will always keep an open mind, and will fight to improve the engine just as I have always done for the last 10 years.

John and I have several engine upgrades under developement, and I will be willing to revist this topic after more people have had a chance to play it with the other games. Currently only Shiloh is offering it, but that will very soon change.






Capt. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2007 5:09 pm 
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<font color="beige"><b>

I think you're on the right track with the artillery capture, the spiking of guns is a minimum concern, it doesn't take much to incapacitate a gun, as has been said previously simply removing the tools, damaging the wheels, or actually spiking the guns only takes one person and a few minutes per gun.

Does anybody know of accounts of guns captured and then recaptured and put back into service during the same battle?....probably about as many as captured guns that were used by the capturing infantry I should think.

To me capturing and having to hold the points that the guns are worth is really the key. Rich you came up with a simple and eloquent solution in how these points are awarded. To spike the guns because you can't hold them results in half the points and if no one is holding them then no one gets any points. Anybody being able to fire captured or recaptured artillery is simply a bonus. </b></font id="beige">

<center><font color="blue"><b>Maj.Gen. R.A.Weir</b></font id="blue">
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:54 am 
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Quote:

<i>Does anybody know of accounts of guns captured and then recaptured and put back into service during the same battle?....</i>

.................


I'm sure there are both ACW and Nappy incidents of this occurring, but the example that immediately comes to mind is Inkermann.

At Inkermann, guns were captured and recaptured, often in fierce hand-to-hand combat (see Osprey vol. p.57 - a battery changed hands 4 times in 45 minutes). There are instances of them being recaptured <i><b>before</b></i> they can be spiked (see Osprey vol. p.67 also p.49) and also at least one instance of captured guns being inadequately spiked.

So I'd recommend that spiking should not be automatic and should not be possible on the turn the guns are captured, nor by disrupted troops. Also that there should be <i>some</i> possibility of unspiking guns.


Brig. Gen. Rich White
3 Brig. Phantom Cav Div
III Corps ANV


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:14 am 
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After the current upgrades being worked on are implimented, tested, etc.., we can revisit this topic. The only additional provision I'm interested in is waitng one turn to spike. I won't agree to unspiking, or not allowing disrupted units to spike. If they are forced to wait one turn, that should be sufficient.

BTW, spiking is not automatic. It's a choice.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Richard</i>
<br />Quote:

<i>Does anybody know of accounts of guns captured and then recaptured and put back into service during the same battle?....</i>

.................


I'm sure there are both ACW and Nappy incidents of this occurring, but the example that immediately comes to mind is Inkermann.

At Inkermann, guns were captured and recaptured, often in fierce hand-to-hand combat (see Osprey vol. p.57 - a battery changed hands 4 times in 45 minutes). There are instances of them being recaptured <i><b>before</b></i> they can be spiked (see Osprey vol. p.67 also p.49) and also at least one instance of captured guns being inadequately spiked.

So I'd recommend that spiking should not be automatic and should not be possible on the turn the guns are captured, nor by disrupted troops. Also that there should be <i>some</i> possibility of unspiking guns.


Brig. Gen. Rich White
3 Brig. Phantom Cav Div
III Corps ANV
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Capt. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:15 am 
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Rich,

Thanks for your reasoned and more experienced input, I can see your point on the Disrupted issue. Perhaps a MP cost to spiking - that way a follow-on regiment after the melee can spike in same turn if sufficient MPS left, etc???

Either way, the new options are better than the guns disappearing from the map altogether!

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2007 2:10 pm 
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The first Gettysburg computer game I ever played was on the C64 by SSI. In it, everything was governed by the MP. Movement, firing, melee, in and out of ZOCs, etc...

I wish some of that could be reintroduced, but the HPS system is too far advanced to change it's core concept. MP's only govern movement.




Capt. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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