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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:08 am 
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Kennon,

As I said, I understand your concern.

But you can't suddenly not allow shooting at uncrewed arty. First, I don't think it's gamey to destroy artillery you don't want retaken by the enemy. Ideally, the arty should be spiked, but if a player wants to destroy it and take the time to do it, why not?

Also, what if you uncrewed an enemy arty battery with infantry fire while it's still stacked with enemy troops. I might want to destroy some of the cannon before it can be recrewed and reused by the enemy.



Capt. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:09 am 
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<i><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If a regiment in Shiloh moves adjacent too and melees with a limbered enemy battery, if it loses the melee (which it usually does if not stacked with infantry) the battery is immediately unlimbered and changed to captured state.</i><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I ran a test in the Mill Springs scenario. Actually, the battery stays limbered when it is captured, and cannot be unlimbered by the capturing player. That is even better than spiking, because the guns can't move or shoot until they are recaptured and recrewed. If the capturing side neglects to spike them. I like it!

As I have stated many times before, the lack of an inherent crew causes a lot of historical anomalies. One of these is the all or nothing crew killed result. Another is when you meleed a limbered artillery unit. The battle results show casualties, but only the attacking unit actually suffers casualties. The artillery unit may or may not lose a gun, but it most certainly won't lose any men. And when a gun is recaptured, it can only be recrewed by replacing all the crew with infantry or cavalry. Historically, when guns were captured, most of the crew were usually able to retreat and recrew the battery when it was recaptured. Anyway, that crew you killed doesn't show up anywhere in the victory points. Hopefully one day HPS will in some fashion assign tangible crews to artillery units, and thereby more faithfully model artillery's historical role on the Civil War battlefield.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:25 am 
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Sounds like a good discussion for TillerConII. Will you be there?


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mihalik</i>
<br /><i><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If a regiment in Shiloh moves adjacent too and melees with a limbered enemy battery, if it loses the melee (which it usually does if not stacked with infantry) the battery is immediately unlimbered and changed to captured state.</i><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I ran a test in the Mill Springs scenario. Actually, the battery stays limbered when it is captured, and cannot be unlimbered by the capturing player. That is even better than spiking, because the guns can't move or shoot until they are recaptured and recrewed. If the capturing side neglects to spike them. I like it!

As I have stated many times before, the lack of an inherent crew causes a lot of historical anomalies. One of these is the all or nothing crew killed result. Another is when you meleed a limbered artillery unit. The battle results show casualties, but only the attacking unit actually suffers casualties. The artillery unit may or may not lose a gun, but it most certainly won't lose any men. And when a gun is recaptured, it can only be recrewed by replacing all the crew with infantry or cavalry. Historically, when guns were captured, most of the crew were usually able to retreat and recrew the battery when it was recaptured. Anyway, that crew you killed doesn't show up anywhere in the victory points. Hopefully one day HPS will in some fashion assign tangible crews to artillery units, and thereby more faithfully model artillery's historical role on the Civil War battlefield.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Capt. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 8:40 am 
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Eventually we might perhaps have the following represented:

1. Gun crew
2. Horses
3. Artillery ammo wagons, ideally per calibre type.

An unlimbered battery would allow the horses to retreat to the rear, ie. into another hex.

Losing the horses will make the battery unable to limber up, so it'll only be possible to move by prolong. Alternatively fresh horses could be brought up. Maybe cavalry losses could distinguish between men and horses lost - certainly dismounted cavalry won't be losing horses - which might result in some spare horses.

Losing crew will reduce the capacity of the battery. So a 5 gun battery losing 20% of the crew will fire as a 4 gun battery, while if it's lost 40% of the crew it'll count as a 3 gun battery, etc.

Guns themselves will only be lost due to enemy artillery fire.

I believe the Squad battles engine has some of the above features.

But how much micromanagement do we actually want? Personally, I'd welcome it, but would prefer it to be optional.


Brig. Gen. Rich White
3 Brig. Phantom Cav Div
III Corps ANV


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:00 am 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rich Walker</i>
<br />1) The difference is one is a tangible object and the other isn't. If you don't have your hand on it, you don't own it. As for land ownership, it's mostly symbolic. But arty can be turned and fired.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Rich, perhaps a bit esoteric, i.e., too much symantical hair-splitting for my warrior blood. The last party / side who claimed ownership of something heretofore owned by the misbegotten enemy should - for all practical, down-to-earth intent - remain in possession of whatever enemy gun, gun-powder, plunger, canteen, blanket, hardtack, what-have-you - until <i>proven</i> otherwise by a successful enemy "recapture" outcome. But, let's move-on, to borrow an internet-based expression, towards a brighter, more hopeful future.[8D]<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">2) You cannot capture a limbered arty unit. The unit is disrupted and displaced.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Has this been confirmed in your own playtesting of the latest Artillery Capture patch?

Indeed, LG Whitehead's Shiloh experience mirrors my Gettysburg exercise.

Thus as already shared, using the latest Gettysburg patch, I was awarded some "captured" yankee limbered guns upon my shoeless boys successful melee. These guns could not be unlimbered - with or without shoes, I might add. And while MG Mihalik gives his blanket approval for the end result, all I am trying to figure out at this point is why?

Indeed, LG Whitehead's observations and stated outcome in Shiloh, to wit.,<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">If a regiment in Shiloh moves adjacent too and melees with a limbered enemy battery, if it loses the melee (which it usually does if not stacked with infantry) the battery is immediately unlimbered and changed to captured state.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> . . . should likely be the routine adopted for all the games in the series, yes? ==Denny

Secretary of the Cabinet, CSA (Retired)
1st Tenn Provisional Army

<center><i>From a certain point onward there is no turning back. That is the point that must be reached.</i> --F. Kafka</center>


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:20 am 
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I'm not where I can test, so I will respond later to the limbered arty question.

Capt. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:10 pm 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Richard</i>
<br />Eventually we might perhaps have the following represented:

1. Gun crew
2. Horses
3. Artillery ammo wagons, ideally per calibre type.

. . . .

Brig. Gen. Rich White
3 Brig. Phantom Cav Div
III Corps ANV<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">I'd always welcome individual gun crews and separate artillery wagons that carried a complement - albeit limited - of one or more ordnance types (grape, canister, explosive, etc.). Individual gun crews would solve a number of tactically-challenged game play considerations. But, it doubtless presents programming challenges that even the almost mythical genius of John Tiller, himself, has heretofore been unable to master, eh? [8D] ==Denny

Secretary of the Cabinet, CSA (Retire)
1st Tenn Provisional Army

<center><i>From a certain point onward there is no turning back. That is the point that must be reached.</i> --F. Kafka</center>


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:44 pm 
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Considering a fair number of club members dislike artillery in sections, taking it to specific ammo types would really send them over the edge. I personally like artillery in section, but I see more detail in ammo types as unnecessary at the game's scale.

One thing I'd like to see is a way to set stacking (particularly on roads) in men/guns during the turn instead of just at the end of it. For example, a limbered section of artillery ending it's move on a road in a forest negates the road bonus for any subsequent passing unit. Plan your moves as you like, but small size units stretch your columns much further out than large sized units. Now, if there was a way for the game to count stacking as units passing over time, that would be ideal, regardless whether it reached that at the end of a movement phase or sometime in the middle of it. I suppose that would be a difficult thing to implement though...[:(]

Lt. General Dirk Gross
XIV Corps/AoC

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 1:35 pm 
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I suspect calculating stacking mid-turn would be more complex than micromanaging gun crews and horses.

There's always the issue of balancing playability and realism.

To some extent, it depends on the players and the scenario. Some players like micromanaging every gun and horse, whereas others don't have the time or wish to do so. Also it's easier dealing with extra units like gun crew in one of the smaller scenarios than in one of the massive ones.

So, if we ever did get this sort of detail, it would need to be optional.

But it would be useful to get artillery supply wagons sometime in the not too distant future. Ideally, the option of both general supply wagons at the end of the OOB plus specific calibre supply too. It shouldn't necessarily be that difficult to link up the specific supply wagons to the various weapon types in the pdt file. That would also facilitate the possibility of small arms specific wagons too. So an army equipped mainly with rifles would have a supply advantage over one with that have a variety of weapon types.


Brig. Gen. Rich White
3 Brig. Phantom Cav Div
III Corps ANV


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 2:59 pm 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rich Walker</i>
<br />Kennon,

As I said, I understand your concern.

But you can't suddenly not allow shooting at uncrewed arty. First, I don't think it's gamey to destroy artillery you don't want retaken by the enemy. Ideally, the arty should be spiked, but if a player wants to destroy it and take the time to do it, why not?

Also, what if you uncrewed an enemy arty battery with infantry fire while it's still stacked with enemy troops. I might want to destroy some of the cannon before it can be recrewed and reused by the enemy.



Capt. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

In an historical context its gamey. The game allows it as a means of obtaining VP while spiking awards no VP once you lose control of the guns. I say "historical context" in that I know of no instance where guns were moved adjacent to captured guns and used to destroy those guns by direct fire in order to prevent their recapture.

Correction to my earlier post. I had thought I had captured some limbered guns and they auotmatically unlimbered on capture. I make a quick test on a short Shiloh scenario and they do stay limbered. Which also is illogical.[:D]

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
III Corps, AoM (CSA)


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 3:04 pm 
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<i><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Now, if there was a way for the game to count stacking as units passing over time, that would be ideal, regardless whether it reached that at the end of a movement phase or sometime in the middle of it. I suppose that would be a difficult thing to implement though...</i><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Hi, General Gross,

Actually, unless I am mistaken, the HPS Panzer Campaigns series has just what you have described, as well as other neat features not incorporated into the ACW engine.

I wonder if John will ever design a Civil War Company Battles series with individual guns and companies like the EAW series. It would be a neat way to game the smaller battles like New Market or Olustee, and a lot of the details mentioned in this thread could be incorporated. But I'm sure there are some folks who would love to fight even large battles on that level. I am not one of them. I would be quite satisfied with incremental improvements to what we already have, but it is a thought.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 10, 2007 4:55 pm 
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Location: Mukilteo, Washington, USA - 25 miles north of Seattle
<font face="Andale Mono"><font size="4"><font color="pink">Gentlemen! <salute>

Interestingly I just read the follow today from the book, Bloody Roads South by Noah Andre Trudeau, following Upton's attack against Dole's Boys at Spotsylvania, <font color="beige">A squad of retreating Pennsylvianians from the 49th Regiment stopped by some Confederate cannon. The captain in charge of the squad looked for something to jam into the vents of the artillery pieces to put them out of action. "Who has a rat-tail file or nail to spike these pieces?" he yelled</font id="beige">

Respectfully,

</font id="pink"></font id="size4"></font id="Andale Mono">

<font color="orange"><font size="4">Nick Kunz
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General
Commandant
Cabinet Secretary
Confederate States of America</font id="orange"></font id="size4">
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 9:59 am 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">2) You cannot capture a limbered arty unit. The unit is disrupted and displaced.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I have just captured , spiked and left a limbered arty unit. If that helps gentlemen.



<center>Colonel Edward Stewart
[url="http://www1.webng.com/Bonemash/EdStewart.html"]Image[/url]

2nd Brig, 3rd Div,
III Corps, ANV
</center>


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:43 am 
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Next updates and new games will have it where captured artillery automatically becomes unlimbered.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bonemash</i>
<br />
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">2) You cannot capture a limbered arty unit. The unit is disrupted and displaced.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I have just captured , spiked and left a limbered arty unit. If that helps gentlemen.



<center>Colonel Edward Stewart
[url="http://www1.webng.com/Bonemash/EdStewart.html"]Image[/url]

2nd Brig, 3rd Div,
III Corps, ANV
</center>
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Capt. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2007 6:34 pm 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Next updates and new games will have it where captured artillery automatically becomes unlimbered.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Good job, Rich. ==Denny

Secretary of the Cabinet, CSA (Retired)
1st Tenn Provisional Army

<center><i>From a certain point onward there is no turning back. That is the point that must be reached.</i> --F. Kafka</center>


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