American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)

I captured my first guns under the new optional rule in a Vicksburg game a couple of days ago.

Two things surprised me about the feature:

1) Captured guns count for VP, however, they are not listed in the VP dialogue as guns. The VP count goes up, that's all. First I had 1 gun, 30 VP, and then after capturing 3 I had 1 gun, 120 VP. Sort of confusing.

Any particular reason?

2) When my own troops vacate the hex, the guns revert to Reb control, uncrewed status. The Rebs don't have to actually retake them; the guns themselves mysteriously seem to have their Reb loyalty, as if they were prisoners of war escaping captivity while left unguarded.

Shouldn't the guns, once taken, stay mine, until a Reb unit actually enters the hex?

Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
3/2/VIII AoS

Good points. Perhaps since the guns can be captured and recaptured multiple times, it's awkward to (re)calculate their VP value?

It would make sense to treat captured guns like captured supply wagons (but without reducing strength by 50%).

Since the gun crew and horses aren't represented separately from the guns and artillery supply is still handled abstractly as in the old BG days, the fact that captured guns can fire but not move implies that 1./ a plentiful supply of ammo and all the other necessary equipment remains available, but also 2./ the horses manage to get away and NEVER get captured along with the guns, thus making them permanently immobile.

However, it's clear that the inability to limber up and move captured guns has quite a big impact on gameplay - especially a lengthy game with troops spread out over a large map - resulting in either 1./ units having to be left behind to permanently "garrison" the captured guns or 2./ the guns being spiked and left behind, with the consequent loss of VPs.

Consequently, it would make far more sense - and certainly improve gameplay for any medium to large scenario - if captured guns switched sides and also (as long as horses and crew aren't represented separately) it were assumed that sufficient horses are available to limber up and move the guns.


Brig. Gen. Rich White
3 Brig. Phantom Cav Div
III Corps ANV

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by D.S. Walter</i>
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2) When my own troops vacate the hex, the guns revert to Reb control, uncrewed status. The Rebs don't have to actually retake them; the guns themselves mysteriously seem to have their a Reb loyalty, as if they were prisoners of war escaping captivity while left unguarded.

Shouldn't the guns, once taken, stay mine, until a Reb unit actually enters the hex?
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Excellent point.

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
General, Commanding, Army of Ohio

ACWGC Cabinet member
</b></font id="gold">

My biggest problems with them reverting besides having to remember to "garrison" them by end of scenario is the "next unit" button cycles through every unit that can fire at one of theses empty batteries and every time a unit moves through one you get that captured dialog and have to reselect your unit.[xx(]

I can see why the game can't give you ability to move them since everyone would limber them up and send them safely to the rear so they could keep the VP and make it impossible for the enemy to retake their guns which was the whole point of the rule in the first place. This more or less reflects CW battle doctrine. The guns abandoned on the field usually went to the side that held the field since they had the time to collect them.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
III Corps, AoM (CSA)

Hi,

I think the new rule, on the whole, is an excellent concept, and generally an improvement, but it certainly needs tinkering. The point about captured artillery being the property of the last side to occupy it is right on. Another problem, which I haven't checked, is that theoretically you could have 1000 men and twenty captured guns firing out of the same hex. If that is the case, somehow it needs to be fixed. Of course, I can't even picture 1000 men or twenty guns firing on a frontage of 125 yds, but I think in some things we just have to be patient. From my research, it seems most guns captured on the battlefield were not moved until the battle was over. Often the reason they were captured was that their horses weren't available to move them, whether by horse casualties or, as in the case of a battery at Murfreesboro, the horses had been taken to the river to drink. I think I also read that some batteries at the Big Black river were captured because their horses had, for some reason, been taken to the other side of the river. In reading Larry Daniels' book on Shiloh, he says that despite claims of thirty captured cannon, so many guns changed hands that the Southerners came out probably no more than four guns ahead. Anyway, I don't have a problem with firing captured guns at half rate and "F" morale, but there ought to be some penalty to infantry fire from that hex. I haven't tested it, but I suppose a single man could occupy a hex with twenty captured guns and fire them all. I guess we can always opt not to use this rule, but I really like it most of the time. It just needs a little work.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA

Make a note (someone) and we'll discuss it at TillerConII

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by KWhitehead</i>
<br />My biggest problems with them reverting besides having to remember to "garrison" them by end of scenario is the "next unit" button cycles through every unit that can fire at one of theses empty batteries and every time a unit moves through one you get that captured dialog and have to reselect your unit.[xx(]

I can see why the game can't give you ability to move them since everyone would limber them up and send them safely to the rear so they could keep the VP and make it impossible for the enemy to retake their guns which was the whole point of the rule in the first place. This more or less reflects CW battle doctrine. The guns abandoned on the field usually went to the side that held the field since they had the time to collect them.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
III Corps, AoM (CSA)
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Capt. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

All I know is this is a big improvement over the old disappearing guns. No more sending a unit on a suicide mission to capture some guns for vp's since they no longer disappear and can easily be recaptured if you have sufficient strength to do so.

Under the new rule I have had guns captured and have seen them lost when the capturing side has the advantage in the battle and retaken when the losing side has the advantage. Occasionally they have been spiked but I still think that is an improvement and once I spiked my own guns to reduce their value to my opponent since I couldn't get them away.

I'd be willing to go along with having the guns remain the property of the side that last held them but the problem may be that there is no way to do that without allowing them to fire when not manned by infantry. I don't think that would be a good idea and if those are the only choices I'd rather keep it the way it is now.

From my readings I also agree that captured guns were not moved off the field until after the battle was over and then the rebels often traded any newer models for their older small smoothbores and howitzers. The artillery horses were usually the first casualties and as noted by others their loss was often the reason guns were captured so allowing the guns to be moved after capture is not a good idea imo.

Gen. Ken Miller



Army of the Shenandoah

For myself, I could go either way on this issue. Perhaps if left unoccupied after the enemy vacated the hex they would generate half VPs unless occupied for full VPs.

On the other hand, if left alone in the middle of a field, they should be considered unowned property. Imagine an abandoned rifle, until picked up, it has no owner.

Imagine for a moment, that the cannon was last occupied by an enemy unit, but that same enemy loses the battle. So though the cannon was occupied by the enemy, that same enemy would have to leave the field because they lost the battle. In the rush to leave the field before the counter-attack, they have no time to round up the additional horses to hitch up the cassions and artillery. So though the cannon wasn't recaptured that same day, they would likely be recovered the next day after the enemy retreated to fight another day.

My point is, it might be reasonable to not give VPs to abandoned artillery because they weren't really captured, just overrun and abandoned.



<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by krmiller</i>
<br />All I know is this is a big improvement over the old disappearing guns. No more sending a unit on a suicide mission to capture some guns for vp's since they no longer disappear and can easily be recaptured if you have sufficient strength to do so.

Under the new rule I have had guns captured and have seen them lost when the capturing side has the advantage in the battle and retaken when the losing side has the advantage. Occasionally they have been spiked but I still think that is an improvement and once I spiked my own guns to reduce their value to my opponent since I couldn't get them away.

I'd be willing to go along with having the guns remain the property of the side that last held them but the problem may be that there is no way to do that without allowing them to fire when not manned by infantry. I don't think that would be a good idea and if those are the only choices I'd rather keep it the way it is now.

From my readings I also agree that captured guns were not moved off the field until after the battle was over and then the rebels often traded any newer models for their older small smoothbores and howitzers. The artillery horses were usually the first casualties and as noted by others their loss was often the reason guns were captured so allowing the guns to be moved after capture is not a good idea imo.

Gen. Ken Miller



Army of the Shenandoah
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Capt. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">My point is, it might be reasonable to not give VPs to abandoned artillery because they weren't really captured, just overrun and abandoned<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Hi, Rich,

You can make the same point about victory hexes. I think, if possible, artillery should be treated the same way. If the owning player hasn't recaptured them by the end of the scenario, the capturing player ought to get the points. Simplifies things. Just my humble opinion.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA

Hi Mike,

I know, and I knew someone would make that point as it had already been mentioned.

In response, I would say that land ownership is not the same as being able to pick something up and using it as one does with a tool. I might still own a field, but the abandoned hammer could belong to anyone who picks it up.

So imagine the victory conditions of a battle. If a battle is won, then the field remains the property of the victor, but if the battle is lost, then though the VPs are still given to the last owner, perhaps the loser, the VPs will make no difference, the battle is still lost. But abandoned artillery is just a piece of property that has no owner until physically claimed, and shouldn't be more valued than any other piece of abandoned material.

If this still doesn't make sense, than we can discuss it at TillerConII. I'll be happy to join the majority.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mihalik</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">My point is, it might be reasonable to not give VPs to abandoned artillery because they weren't really captured, just overrun and abandoned<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Hi, Rich,

You can make the same point about victory hexes. I think, if possible, artillery should be treated the same way. If the owning player hasn't recaptured them by the end of the scenario, the capturing player ought to get the points. Simplifies things. Just my humble opinion.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA
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Capt. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

Just to be sure: I do not expect to be able to take the captured guns away. I would, however, expect them to remain captured, once captured, unless actually recaptured by the other side. Otherwise I have to detach a full regiment to guard each single gun I have captured, just to make sure it doesn't revert to Reb ownership all on its own. Fine in big battles, a killer in small ones like the one I'm in. Doesn't make sense.

Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
3/2/VIII AoS

Awww, just spike 'em, get the 50% VP credit and move on...[:D]

Good point, Dierk, didn't realize they reverted if you moved away...


General Jeff Laub
Union Chief of the Army
ACWGC Cabinet Member
http://www.geocities.com/laubster22/UnionHQ/

Let's be clear on this, when the hex is vacated, they become uncrewed and abandoned. They do not rejoin their original side. When vacated, they belong to <b>NO</b> side. The only change is the capturing side temporarily loses the VPs until reoccupied. In order to become the propety of the original owners, the guns would have to be recrewed. And captured is defined as occupied. If they are not occupied they are not captured, just uncrewed and abandoned.

Spiking will only give you 50% VPs if occupied. They are worth nothing if vacated.

One more thing, to receive VPs, any unit will do, a leader, supply wagon, etc...

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by laubster22</i>
<br />Awww, just spike 'em, get the 50% VP credit and move on...[:D]

Good point, Dierk, didn't realize they reverted if you moved away...


General Jeff Laub
Union Chief of the Army
ACWGC Cabinet Member
http://www.geocities.com/laubster22/UnionHQ/
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Capt. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

So, how exactly does this "belonging to no side" work out? If I "abandon" the guns and win the battle, do these guns permanently disappear from the campaign, or do they re-appear in the Reb order of battle in the next battle? If the latter, that would indeed mean they revert to Reb ownership automatically if no Federal unit is in the hex.

Any particular reason why guns cannot just remain captured once they are captured, without anyone guarding them to make sure they don't become "abandoned"? Again, this does *not* mean I expect to be able to move them off.

Or alternatively, why can I not recrew them, if I can recrew own batteries?

Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
3/2/VIII AoS

Derek,

Good questions, but they have been discussed before. I wish the manual would include this information!! John won't do it. At least not yet.

First, my original comments related to stand alone scns. Campaign issues are treated differently. And to be honest I can't remember how it all breaks downs.

If I recall, captured guns are either eliminated from the campaign, or they return to their original side with a strength of one, or 50%. I would test it for you, but I'm at work at the moment. They will not be added to the capturing side for the next battle.

As to recrewing, they are recrewed by the capturing side in the sense they newly captured artillery can be turned and fired. However, they can't be moved because the likely hood of finding horses etc..


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by D.S. Walter</i>
<br />So, how exactly does this "belonging to no side" work out? If I "abandon" the guns and win the battle, do these guns permanently disappear from the campaign, or do they re-appear in the Reb order of battle in the next battle? If the latter, that would indeed mean they revert to Reb ownership automatically if no Federal unit is in the hex.

Any particular reason why guns cannot just remain captured once they are captured, without anyone guarding them to make sure they don't become "abandoned"? Again, this does *not* mean I expect to be able to move them off.

Or alternatively, why can I not recrew them, if I can recrew own batteries?

Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
3/2/VIII AoS



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Capt. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"