American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)

Fisrt please see below string for the early background but this was too bizarre to just complicate further below. This is kind of crazy. I hope someone, Rich? maybe, can explain this:

NOW there are three spiked batteries showing on the map (see the jpeg below) AND THE VICTORY SCREEN NOW SHOWS NO POINTS LOST FOR REB ARTILLERY (see the two jpegs under the map - one is the first turn after spiking showing 60 points, and the other is the LATEST TURN I just completed NOW showing <b>ZERO</b> POINTS.

After the turn when it showed 60 points, I concluded with Rich's help that the Reb must have spiked two batteries of 4 guns each himself before I could get to them, and the other one I must have been successful with was worth 60 BECAUSE guns in any game but Gettysburg (this is Vicksburg) are ONLY worth 30 points and spiking only counts for half or 15 points X 4 = 60.

Besides the point that I am sure that I DID spike the two lower batteries...why? Because I successfully meleed both of them in the same turn. On the following turn he did not recapture them and therefore he could not have spiked them. I say besides that point because two batteries of 4 should have been worth half of 240 or 120.

BUT as you can see first the screen showed only 60 and then a turn later ZERO.

Now maybe I am somehow an idiot but I not only do not understand this but those victory screens and the map and the melees contradict what has been said in explanation in this regrettable string that I started.

I am not whining about it. I don't care about the points in this game...but what are we supposed to expect to happen when we spike a gun? First I captured them, then I spiked them...I got the captured label first, I got the spiked label second. I am told I don't need to occupy spiked guns to get the points so I left them and now my opponent has 12 spiked guns and no penalty points.

Yes, yes...I will give it up...this is too maddening to figure out, but please look below. If anyone understands what might have happened I would be grateful for the enlightenment.








Above on the map: I am occupying one with a Yank inf. and the other two are sitting there unoccupied by either side. The two lone Reb batteries are clearly shown on the map and they are labeled "spiked" though it doesn't show on the units on the map itself in the image, and the third one you must look below to the info bar for my Yank on top of the 3rd spiked Reb battery.

The top VP screen is from the turn when I spiked what I thought were 3 batteries (showeing 60 points) The second VP screen is the last turn that I just completed (showing ZERO POINTS).

<b>Go figure!</b>

Colonel Tom Ciampa

2nd Bgde,1st Cav
XIV Corps, AoC
Games: TS/BG: AN, BR, CH, GB, SH - HPS: AT, CTH, GB, OZK, SH, VK

Tom,
please send this file to Rich Hamilton ASAP, this is the kind of thing John will want to track down as soon as he can.

Major General Gary McClellan
1st Division, XXIII Corps
AoO,USA

Don't feel bad, it's not whining, it's trying to understand how these changes impact the games. Good topics and keep at it!

I agree with Gary - send off the file to Rich Hamilton - support@hpssims.com is one that will work, I believe...


General Jeff Laub
Union Chief of the Army
ACWGC Cabinet Member
http://www.geocities.com/laubster22/UnionHQ/

Thanks. I sent off two game file and the jpegs. Hopefully they can see the issue.


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by laubster22</i>
<br />Don't feel bad, it's not whining, it's trying to understand how these changes impact the games. Good topics and keep at it!

I agree with Gary - send off the file to Rich Hamilton - support@hpssims.com is one that will work, I believe...


General Jeff Laub
Union Chief of the Army
ACWGC Cabinet Member
http://www.geocities.com/laubster22/UnionHQ/
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Colonel Tom Ciampa

2nd Bgde,1st Cav
XIV Corps, AoC
Games: TS/BG: AN, BR, CH, GB, SH - HPS: AT, CTH, GB, OZK, SH, VK

Let me take a stab at this.

In the picture, it shows two Reb batteries unoccupied and one occupied. That is where the 60 points come from; you don't get credit for the two batteries because they aren't occupied. If on the next turn you moved off the one you occupied, you get no points. I can't tell because the victory screen covers the map.

It doesn't matter if a captured battery is spiked or not, if you don't physically occupy it, you don't get the points. It doesn't matter who spiked it either. I would rather captured batteries be like captured victory hexes and remain in control of the last player to physically occupy the hex, but it doesn't work that way.

Try parking a leader or unit on each of the batteries and see what happens.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA

Honestly, from the pictures you sent, I can't tell anything. The one with the 4 gun battery and 60 pts on the screen is correct. The rest doesn't show anything.

Mike's explanation seems correct given the lack of information. You can always send me a file. Just click on my name and send an email with the attached file.



Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

I give up. I captured and then spiked on the following turn, two batteries of guns for sure...they were labeled captured. The Reb lost points for them. On the next turn after capturing I spiked them. They were labeled spiked. The score dropped from 240 to 60. I continually occupied when captured. I occupied for one turn while spiked...I left the hex on the turn following spiking because someone told me that you didn't have to occupy spiked cannon, but only captured cannon...that is why I spiked them in the first place. Then the score dropped to ZERO.

The screen shot doesn't show the status of the two units on the map because those units are not highlight and thus you can't see the spiked label on the info bar at the bottom as you can see the label on the one that is displayed. BUT all three of those hexes have LABELED SPIKED CANNON in them. As I said you don't see me occupying them because I was told one doesn't have to occupy spike guns....

I would say unqualifyingly that I am wrong and probably my opponent spiked them BUT THEN how would you explain that I meleed them, got a captured label and then HE was able to spike them...it seems to me that they would have been labeled as spiked when I meleed them but they were not they were labeled captured.

What is maddening and I am not a rules lawyer, is that I have asked several times if there is any documentation for this stuff with no answer. I know that I can search the discussion groups and wade through message after message some with facts and some with speculation. Wouldn't you think after so many times this topic has come...I am not the first to start such a string, that HPS would simply provide a list of one liner cases to explain the mechanism i.e.

You must occupy to maintain captured status
You do not have to occupy to maintain spiked status
The owner can spike his own guns, the arty unit can spike it self at no cost in points to the owner but he loses the use of the guns.
Capture is full points
Spiked is half points
Spiking happens immediately for the owner...a label appears
Capture happens immediately but the capturer must wait one turn to spike
If a gun is NOT labled as captured and you melee it, the original owner can not have spiked it the turn before or it would show as spiked. In my case I would not have meleed the hex with the guns if the guns showed as already spiked. All that would do is disrupt me and probably not killed many of the defender.

The point of all this and I do despair over wasting so much time with it, is not the loss or gain of points but a simple clear understanding of the most common cause and result of Artillery capture and spiking activities....it may not appear complicated at first glance but there are clear questions. Of course perhaps I should just trust in the engine to do the right thing. But it gives pause to think when you do just what you are told is the way it works and you get a result that appears incorrect.

I will send you a file later when I am off work...I don't have access to my files here. And I will do another screen shot with those unoccupied units displayed in the info bar so that you can see that they are spiked.

As far as the suggestion that I have not occupied those two hexes goes, I say again that someone here in this string told me that you DON'T HAVE TO OCCUPY SPIKED GUNS...what would be the point?

I don't think I will bother this further...this is just going nowhere and must appear as a rant.



<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rich Walker</i>
<br />Honestly, from the pictures you sent, I can't tell anything. The one with the 4 gun battery and 60 pts on the screen is correct. The rest doesn't show anything.

Mike's explanation seems correct given the lack of information. You can always send me a file. Just click on my name and send an email with the attached file.



Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Colonel Tom Ciampa

2nd Bgde,1st Cav
XIV Corps, AoC
Games: TS/BG: AN, BR, CH, GB, SH - HPS: AT, CTH, GB, OZK, SH, VK