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 Post subject: A slight clarification to the Arty Clarifications
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 9:50 am 
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I have set up a simple scenario in the Vicksburg game using the scenario edtior to experiment and test various permutations and combinations of units eligible for capturing and spiking artillery. Rich is right on with all of his summaries except that in my tests I found that A LONE WAGON CAN SPIKE artillery. Please see the screenshot below and that the spiked arty unit is labeled "spiked" and the spikee is that loney, but rather gutsy wagon. I found this quite by accident while doing methodical experients in preparation for a paper I am attempting for the war college on Capturing and Spiking Artillery just to have it all in one convenient place as a reference.

Thanks.

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Colonel Tom Ciampa
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:16 am 
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If the teamsters can spike a gun, can they fire it as well? Can a leader? Longstreet and his staff helped man some guns at Sharpsburg. And teamsters helped repel a cavalry attack at Williamsport on the retreat from Gettysburg. But I look forward to the day when guns have real crews, and maybe then you will need to designate actual troops to fire them.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 10:21 am 
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You need to send the file to HPS Support.
support@hpssims.com

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 11:48 am 
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I missed the supply wagon spikee, but the answer is no and no.

I would rather have it on what is likely, not based on those very rare or singular occurances.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mihalik</i>
<br />If the teamsters can spike a gun, can they fire it as well? Can a leader? Longstreet and his staff helped man some guns at Sharpsburg. And teamsters helped repel a cavalry attack at Williamsport on the retreat from Gettysburg. But I look forward to the day when guns have real crews, and maybe then you will need to designate actual troops to fire them.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:47 pm 
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Live and learn. Good we put those boys to work on the battlefield!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:52 pm 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rich Walker</i>
<br />I missed the supply wagon spikee, but the answer is no and no.

I would rather have it on what is likely, not based on those very rare or singular occurances.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mihalik</i>
<br />If the teamsters can spike a gun, can they fire it as well? Can a leader? Longstreet and his staff helped man some guns at Sharpsburg. And teamsters helped repel a cavalry attack at Williamsport on the retreat from Gettysburg. But I look forward to the day when guns have real crews, and maybe then you will need to designate actual troops to fire them.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Colonel Tom Ciampa
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XIV Corps, AoC
Games: TS/BG: AN, BR, CH, GB, SH - HPS: AT, CTH, GB, OZK, SH, VK


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:28 pm 
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Rich. I am not trying to stump the expert. All I know is that I was able to spike a gun with a wagon. So to understand, are you telling me that this is an isolated, freak occurence? Because if it is, it is very easy to do. A wagon within 10 mp of an enemy arty unit labeled captured and it is RE-Captured and in the following movement phase for that wagon, that wagon spikes the gun every time. Now you may be saying it shouldn't be that way and I wouldn't argue with you because if it wasn't meant to be I accept that. But if it consisently can be done, I don't see how it can be passed off as unlikely and a rare occurrence. Try it yourself.

With regard to Mike's question below, you are certainly correct that a captured arty can not be fired by a wagon or a leader nor spiked by a leader. I tried all those too.

I also tried using an unlimbered atry AND a limbered arty as a "capturer" and both could fire the guns. Obviously an uncrewed arty can not. First of all it can't move if it is uncrewed, and when I tried to "un" crew an artillery piece by gun fire or artillery fire, either one or the other, the enemy piece or the capturing artillery that were in the same hex, got "blowed up" [:)] Mabye too much firepower, but I was hoping I could kill the crew of the capturing arty and have two opposing batteries Uncrewed in the same hex just to see if that was possible...and if it was possible I would suspect that neither gun could fire and neither side would get credit for points.

Like I said Rich, I was not trying to stump the designer. I found your most recent posts very very helpful and after a search of about 20 pages of text of past posts (thru A LOT of reading and only limited ease of searching the forums) I thought I would take a crack at writing up a consolidated account of the whole who, when and how of both capture and spiking so it would all be conveniently in one easy to find place. Then to make sure I didn't either miss anything or misunderstand your posts, I set up a test scenario to see what I could do with what and stumbled upon the use of a wagon to spike cannon. If it was not intended to work then it is a bug isn't it? And ought to be fixed unless it has been fixed in Atlanta or Chickamauga.

While I am here...I am playing a Vicksburg campaign, version 1.01b. My opponent checked off <i>Artillery Retire by Prolong</i> and I didn't even notice it until the 3rd battle BUT it doesn't work? Is this a case of updating the optional rules menu before implementing the new feature? There is nothing in the latest Vicksburg printable manual or the help dropdown or the release notes.

Maybe I should just be happy I am able to sit up and take nourishment by myself and use my mouse finger and not read any manuals or question anything [:D]

The help of anyone in sorting out this kind of stuff is always helpful and particularly your input Rich.

And to Ernie...I can send support a file but why? All they need is someone to tell them to try it. I had an old maid aunt that once said about the weather one night when we were all watching a forecast of a big storm..."it didn't come over my TV" meaning up her room where she was watching the same channel...well this business came over MY computer and with the latest version of the game. [B)]

Thanks.


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rich Walker</i>
<br />I missed the supply wagon spikee, but the answer is no and no.

I would rather have it on what is likely, not based on those very rare or singular occurances.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mihalik</i>
<br />If the teamsters can spike a gun, can they fire it as well? Can a leader? Longstreet and his staff helped man some guns at Sharpsburg. And teamsters helped repel a cavalry attack at Williamsport on the retreat from Gettysburg. But I look forward to the day when guns have real crews, and maybe then you will need to designate actual troops to fire them.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Colonel Tom Ciampa
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2nd Bgde,1st Cav
XIV Corps, AoC
Games: TS/BG: AN, BR, CH, GB, SH - HPS: AT, CTH, GB, OZK, SH, VK


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:03 pm 
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Col. Tom

My comment was directed at Mike's question. I would not advocate firing with a leader because of one isolated comment, nor would I allow a wagon to fire arty. But I have no problem letting a supply wagon spike.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:33 pm 
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Mike. Thanks. Sorry. It is easy sometimes because of semantics to confuse meaning...upon re-reading I must have missed the "missed" as in the spkee. I see what you meant now. But remember, nothing in this is a duel. I am just trying to sort it all out. After all these exchanges it is becoming clearer and clearer. And I saw in one of your posts that you have been suggesting more documentation in the manual and that is good. I know that JT isn't big on definitive rules explanation. That is a good thing sometimes as one doesn't like to read rules that sound like a lawyer wrote them. But when so many new innovations come out and we have to find the nuiances...nuiances heck..in some instances critical info, by stumbling in it during a game, and then posting questions...well it is a method but just a little more amplification in the manual or help file would be good thing. If it wasn't for your post of clarifications we would know much less than we do now. Thanks

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rich Walker</i>
<br />Col. Tom

My comment was directed at Mike's question. I would not advocate firing with a leader because of one isolated comment, nor would I allow a wagon to fire arty. But I have no problem letting a supply wagon spike.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Colonel Tom Ciampa
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XIV Corps, AoC
Games: TS/BG: AN, BR, CH, GB, SH - HPS: AT, CTH, GB, OZK, SH, VK


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:44 pm 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rich Walker</i>
<br />Col. Tom

But I have no problem letting a supply wagon spike.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Isn't that ahistorical and also sort of gamey? We don't want to allow supply wagons to exert a ZOC, nor do we want them scouting around, but we will allow them to be an offensive weapon?

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:12 pm 
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Ernie,

Your right of course, but I think it's just one of those weird circumstances, a circumstance that I doubt would actually be used in play. But picture a supply wagon stumbling upon an abandoned enemy arty. The hex is occupied and the guys in the supply wagon jump off the wagon and decide to spike the gun before leaving for the front to resupply friendly troops. So I don't think a supply wagon is going to move into a combat zone and spike arty, but they might stumble on one in the rear. But spiking would be a waste of time. One would do better just to occupy the hex and take full VP points. The reason why leaders and supply wagons were given the ability to occupy enemy arty hexes was to free up combat units so they wouldn't have to return to the rear and waste time in order to claim points for arty tubes that have been either spiked or captured.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Ernie Sands</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rich Walker</i>
<br />Col. Tom

But I have no problem letting a supply wagon spike.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Isn't that ahistorical and also sort of gamey? We don't want to allow supply wagons to exert a ZOC, nor do we want them scouting around, but we will allow them to be an offensive weapon?

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
General, Commanding, Army of Ohio
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<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
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"Defenders of Tennessee"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:14 pm 
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Ernie...I wouldn't argue hard one way or another but on the other hand, those wagons represent a lot of men don't they? And if a foot soldier can trudge by and stick a twig or pipe stem into a touch hole, I should think a few wagon crews would have enough wise guys among them to muster up a little esprit and step out of the box. I wouldn't think that we have enough wagons that we would necessariy get "sporty" with them as L'l Abner would say, but in those probably few circumstances where an abandoned arty battery and a wagon would find themselves in close proximity it might not be all that ahistorical. Remember, they can't fire the guns but they can occupy them for points. So if they can occupy them what would be so hard about spiking them. Unless of course they shouldn't be able to occupy them to begin with.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Ernie Sands</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rich Walker</i>
<br />Col. Tom

But I have no problem letting a supply wagon spike.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Isn't that ahistorical and also sort of gamey? We don't want to allow supply wagons to exert a ZOC, nor do we want them scouting around, but we will allow them to be an offensive weapon?

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
General, Commanding, Army of Ohio
Image
ACWGC Cabinet member
</b></font id="gold">

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Colonel Tom Ciampa
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2nd Bgde,1st Cav
XIV Corps, AoC
Games: TS/BG: AN, BR, CH, GB, SH - HPS: AT, CTH, GB, OZK, SH, VK


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:16 pm 
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Ernie...I wouldn't argue hard one way or another but on the other hand, those wagons represent a lot of men don't they? And if a foot soldier can trudge by and stick a twig or pipe stem into a touch hole, I should think a few wagon crews would have enough wise guys among them to muster up a little esprit and step out of the box. I wouldn't think that we have enough wagons that we would necessariy get "sporty" with them as L'l Abner would say, but in those probably few circumstances where an abandoned arty battery and a wagon would find themselves in close proximity it might not be all that ahistorical. Remember, they can't fire the guns but they can occupy them for points. So if they can occupy them what would be so hard about spiking them. Unless of course they shouldn't be able to occupy them to begin with.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Ernie Sands</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rich Walker</i>
<br />Col. Tom

But I have no problem letting a supply wagon spike.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Isn't that ahistorical and also sort of gamey? We don't want to allow supply wagons to exert a ZOC, nor do we want them scouting around, but we will allow them to be an offensive weapon?

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
General, Commanding, Army of Ohio
Image
ACWGC Cabinet member
</b></font id="gold">

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Colonel Tom Ciampa
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2nd Bgde,1st Cav
XIV Corps, AoC
Games: TS/BG: AN, BR, CH, GB, SH - HPS: AT, CTH, GB, OZK, SH, VK


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 6:17 pm 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Unless of course they shouldn't be able to occupy them to begin with.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I do not think they should have any offensive capability. Capturing, points, spiking equates to offensive behavior, IMO.

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 12:56 am 
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As I said, I wouldn't argue hard for any of the points usually made here about optional rules and later additions. I usually am a follower and rather trusting. I figure if it gets into the game that the designers know more than I do...my beef has always only been the dearth of information about various game points. I don't care what the rules are, I just want to understand them. It has all been interesting though, and thanks.


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Ernie Sands</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Unless of course they shouldn't be able to occupy them to begin with.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I do not think they should have any offensive capability. Capturing, points, spiking equates to offensive behavior, IMO.

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
General, Commanding, Army of Ohio
Image
ACWGC Cabinet member
</b></font id="gold">

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Colonel Tom Ciampa
Image
2nd Bgde,1st Cav
XIV Corps, AoC
Games: TS/BG: AN, BR, CH, GB, SH - HPS: AT, CTH, GB, OZK, SH, VK


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