American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)

http://www.usregulars.com/IFA/IFA_intro.htm Instructions for Field Artillery <blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">SPIKING AND UNSPIKING CANNON, AND RENDERING THEM UNSERVICEABLE.
142. To spike a piece, or to render it unserviceable. Drive into the vent a jagged and hardened steel spike with a soft point, or a nail without a head; break it off flush with the outer surface and clinch the point inside by means of the rammer. Wedge a shot in the bottom of the bore by wrapping it with felt, or by means of iron wedges, using the rammer or a bar of iron to drive them in; a wooden wedge would be easily burnt by means of a charcoal fire lighted with the aid of a bellows. Cause shells to burst in the bore of brass guns, or fire broken shot from them with high charges. Fill a piece with sand over the charge to burst it. Fire a piece against another, muzzle to muzzle, or the muzzle of one to the chase of the other. Light a fire under the chase of a brass gun, and strike on it with a sledge to bend it. Break off the trunnions of iron guns; or burst them by firing them with heavy charges and full of shot, at a high elevation. When guns are to be spiked temporarily, and are likely to be retaken, a spring spike is used, having a shoulder to prevent its being too easily extracted.
To unspike a piece. If the spike is not screwed in or clinched, and the bore is not impeded, put in a charge of powder of one third the weight of the shot, and ram junk wads over it with a handspike, laying on the bottom of the bore a strip of wood with a groove on the under side containing a strand of quick match, by which fire is communicated to the charge. In a brass gun, take out some of the metal at the upper orifice of the vent, and pour sulphuric acid into the groove for some hours before firing. If this method, several times repeated, is not successful, unscrew the vent piece, if it be a brass gun, and if an iron one, drill out the spike, or drill a new vent. To drive out a shot wedged in the bore. Unscrew the vent piece, if there be one, and drive in wedges so as to start the shot forward, then ram it back again in order to seize the wedge with a hook; or pour in powder and fire it, after replacing the vent piece. In the last resort, bore a hole in the bottom of the breech, drive out the shot, and stop the hole with a screw.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">It becomes obvious that untrained people could, easily and quickly, temporarily spike a cannon, especially with a nail or twig in the "vent." Wedging a shot with felt and wood sounds fairly easy also.
Bursting and destroying a gun by packing mud or sand over a multiple overcharge with shot would be easy, but sounds really dangerous for the guy firing the charge.

In a day when most men were hunters and adept with muskets, so that they understood the principles of firearms, I believe that even teamsters could spike a cannon. They would certainly know not to fire a musket or rifle when the barrel has been fouled with mud. I remember learning that as a child.
I say, "Let teamsters spike cannon." It would be merely about initiative and leadership.
Even a leader unit with a few HQ staff should be able to do it, and quickly.

BG Ross McDaniel
2nd Bde, 3rd Div, III Corps, AoG, CSA

Men stumble over the truth from time to time, but most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing happened.
Winston Churchill

Edit: Removed duplicate entry. Posting is often a "hang fire."

Ernie,

Not sure if you read my response to your post.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Ernie Sands</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Unless of course they shouldn't be able to occupy them to begin with.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I do not think they should have any offensive capability. Capturing, points, spiking equates to offensive behavior, IMO.

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
General, Commanding, Army of Ohio

ACWGC Cabinet member
</b></font id="gold">

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

We will probably never be completely satisfied, but I am ever so grateful that the debate has moved to its current level from "Why do guns just disappear when you capture them?" which was a topic on the old Talonsoft boards ten years ago. Thanks, Rich!

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA

Maybe pioneers and supply wagons should be able to <i><b>unspike</b></i> guns, say at 10% probability per turn? This should certainly be feasible in a lengthy scenario, in which case maybe even ordinary infantry should have some chance of unspiking them.

Since twigs were often used to spike guns in the heat of battle, maybe the probability of unspiking ought to be higher.


Brig. Gen. Rich White
3 Brig. Phantom Cav Div
III Corps ANV

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Maybe pioneers and supply wagons should be able to unspike guns, say at 10% probability per turn? This should certainly be feasible in a lengthy scenario, in which case maybe even ordinary infantry should have some chance of unspiking them.

Since twigs were often used to spike guns in the heat of battle, maybe the probability of unspiking ought to be higher.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Hi,

Nothing I have read indicates guns were unspiked in the course of a
battle. I have read of several incidents where guns captured were immediately put to use and others where they were spiked. Of course, after the battle captured guns could be assigned to an existing battery, as happened to the guns captured by Ewell at Winchester in 1863; or perhaps organized into a new battery, such as the guns captured at Valverde. At Shiloh, the Rebs traded some of their inferior guns for better ones they captured from the Yanks. They didn't have enough horses to remove them all, apparently. What did happen, as at Devil's Den, was that the Yanks didn't spike the guns per se, just removed the tools necessary to operate them. Then if the guns were retaken, they could be put back into operation.


MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA

Probably unspiking is adding unnecessary complexity. It didn't happen often but if made available in game it would be overused.

What I would like to see is captured guns stay captured until the original owner moves a friendly unit back on it to recapture it. We shouldn't have to have a mad scramble at the end of game to get regiments to occupy hexes.

Another nice feature would be automatic generation of an artillery crew that retreats or routes from the battery when its captured. If recaptured the owning player could then recrew with the crew counter. Board games that allowed this usually put some limit on the life of the crew counter since the player could use them to recrew guns else where if they didn't eventually disappear. Best solution would be to link them to a specific battery and/or have them degrade in morale each turn that they don't return to crewing a gun.

This would simulate the usual tactic of the crew withdrawing to the protection of the infantry if overrun rather than fighting to the last man without small arms weapons.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
III Corps, AoM (CSA)

In playing Atlanta, I noticed that a Yankee battery that I had captured, spiked, and abandoned, that was well behind my lines, kept generating a Col. Anon to command it.....That would give the opponent unfair LOS......I was just playing against the AI, so no biggie....The first time it happened, I thought little of it....but it happened several times till I simply made sure I kept a unit occupying the hex.....


BG Hank Smith
Army of Georgia
Smith's Division CO
Carroll's Corp

My God! What hath I wrought! All this from bringing up that one measely wagon could spike a battery...I will be hated by the "designing establishment" [:(] I used to be able to say that I am "new" but I have this vague recollection that this was all mentioned and discussed back before Tiller Con. I dearly hope that I am wrong that this is an old chestnut that I inadvertantly threw back into the fire? Or did this spiking stuff not get discussed the first go around within the club at large?

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by KWhitehead</i>
<br />Probably unspiking is adding unnecessary complexity. It didn't happen often but if made available in game it would be overused.

What I would like to see is captured guns stay captured until the original owner moves a friendly unit back on it to recapture it. We shouldn't have to have a mad scramble at the end of game to get regiments to occupy hexes.

Another nice feature would be automatic generation of an artillery crew that retreats or routes from the battery when its captured. If recaptured the owning player could then recrew with the crew counter. Board games that allowed this usually put some limit on the life of the crew counter since the player could use them to recrew guns else where if they didn't eventually disappear. Best solution would be to link them to a specific battery and/or have them degrade in morale each turn that they don't return to crewing a gun.

This would simulate the usual tactic of the crew withdrawing to the protection of the infantry if overrun rather than fighting to the last man without small arms weapons.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
III Corps, AoM (CSA)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Colonel Tom Ciampa

2nd Bgde,1st Cav
XIV Corps, AoC
Games: TS/BG: AN, BR, CH, GB, SH - HPS: AT, CTH, GB, OZK, SH, VK

Here is another interesting tidbit. If you have eight artillery units in a stack, and the enemy successfully melees the stack, it will stack on top of the captured artillery. If it then leaves the stack, the original owner cannot place a unit on the stack of uncrewed units, so he can't recrew the artillery. But if the capturing player leaves a unit on the stack, and the original owner can successfully melee it, he can get units on the stack and presumably recrew when his units undisrupt. Fascinating. I assume the same holds true when the artillery stack holds twenty guns, but I haven't tried that yet.

Well, I tried it with twenty uncrewed guns, and the original owner can enter the hex with infantry, unlike the 8-stack hex.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA

Sorry, no clue about this comment. A lone spiked battery cannot generate a leader. A Col. Anon can only be generated when another leader is killed. If not, we need a file to debug. Send me the file.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jefferson H. Davis</i>
<br />In playing Atlanta, I noticed that a Yankee battery that I had captured, spiked, and abandoned, that was well behind my lines, kept generating a Col. Anon to command it.....That would give the opponent unfair LOS......I was just playing against the AI, so no biggie....The first time it happened, I thought little of it....but it happened several times till I simply made sure I kept a unit occupying the hex.....


BG Hank Smith
Army of Georgia
Smith's Division CO
Carroll's Corp

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

Hi, Rich,

I think in some Atlanta scenarios there is an artillery leader. If he was captured when the battery was taken, he would pop up on some subordinate unit. Every time you captured him he would have to pop up somewhere unless he ran out of subordinate units I guess. I checked the Resaca scenario and Conf Maj Hotchkiss does that.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA

That is interesting to know. The engine never ceases to surprise me...quite remarkable actually.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mihalik</i>
<br />Hi, Rich,

I think in some Atlanta scenarios there is an artillery leader. If he was captured when the battery was taken, he would pop up on some subordinate unit. Every time you captured him he would have to pop up somewhere unless he ran out of subordinate units I guess. I checked the Resaca scenario and Conf Maj Hotchkiss does that.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Colonel Tom Ciampa

2nd Bgde,1st Cav
XIV Corps, AoC
Games: TS/BG: AN, BR, CH, GB, SH - HPS: AT, CTH, GB, OZK, SH, VK

Sure, that's true of any leader death, wounding, or capture. But the way the post read, that's not what was being said.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mihalik</i>
<br />Hi, Rich,

I think in some Atlanta scenarios there is an artillery leader. If he was captured when the battery was taken, he would pop up on some subordinate unit. Every time you captured him he would have to pop up somewhere unless he ran out of subordinate units I guess. I checked the Resaca scenario and Conf Maj Hotchkiss does that.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

" Sure, that's true of any leader death, wounding, or capture. But the way the post read, that's not what was being said.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by mihalik

Hi, Rich,

I think in some Atlanta scenarios there is an artillery leader. If he was captured when the battery was taken, he would pop up on some subordinate unit. Every time you captured him he would have to pop up somewhere unless he ran out of subordinate units I guess. I checked the Resaca scenario and Conf Maj Hotchkiss does that.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"
"

Rich,
Essentially it is what is being said except that I had spiked the gun....I think I captured all the batteries under that commander....I was using the others against the AI...This one I chose to spike and abandon....I guess that is why it kept getting another new leader.....I would have thought being spiked would have precluded this....Unfortunatly, I don't have any saves....I finished the battle and the campaign ended...Now that I think about it, an arty commander popped up in the General vicinity when I had all of them occupied.....I believe he was also a Col. Anon....





BG Hank Smith
Army of Georgia
Smith's Division CO
Carroll's Corp