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 Post subject: A B ... E F Troops ???????
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:01 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2002 4:36 pm
Posts: 114
Location: Australia
Hello,

I thought A get +20 B +10 , E -10 F -20 when firing, defending etc.

Nappy and EAW games all do this, did I miss something?

Why are ACW different?



<font color="gold"><b>Brig. Gen. </b></font id="gold">Paul Wakeman, <font color="limegreen">Sharpshooter</font id="limegreen">
[url="http://www.acwgc.org/acwgc_members/paw/Wakeman.html"]OBD[/url]
Kansas Dragoons
<font color="beige">2nd Cavalry Division </font id="beige">
<b>XIX Corps, AoS,<font color="gold"> USA</font id="gold"></b>

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:53 am 
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Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:52 am
Posts: 951
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Hi, General,

You might as well ask why Napoleonics facing is hex spine while ACW is hex side. There is a lot of difference even between different ACW games, although it is more standardized than it once was. I really haven't dealt with Napoleonics much in years, but the differences in quality effects may have to do with training and experience. Even the best ACW troops had limited training and battlefield experience compared to Napoleonic troops like the Old Guard, who were individually selected for that unit from among the bravest and most skilled. Maybe that is why some troops are rated A+++? You won't find that in ACW. In the end, though, I think it just boils down to the philosophies of the different designers. I have observed that JT defers a lot to the individual designers, and I think these are different for Napoleonic and ACW.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:07 am 
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Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2001 12:13 am
Posts: 335
Location: USA
That is in the game.

In both the Nap/EAW engine, as well as the ACW, that's the "Quality Fire Mod" optional rule.

Major General Gary McClellan
1st Division, XXIII Corps
AoO,USA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:18 am 
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Posts: 335
Location: USA
I do think troop values comes down to design philosophy to a fair extent. I'm one of those that feels that theres too many high end troops running around out there.

I'm more "in the mix" on the philosophy issues on the Nap side than the ACW side, but I know over there, the differences are fairly deep.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mihalik</i>
<br />Hi, General,

You might as well ask why Napoleonics facing is hex spine while ACW is hex side. There is a lot of difference even between different ACW games, although it is more standardized than it once was. I really haven't dealt with Napoleonics much in years, but the differences in quality effects may have to do with training and experience. Even the best ACW troops had limited training and battlefield experience compared to Napoleonic troops like the Old Guard, who were individually selected for that unit from among the bravest and most skilled. Maybe that is why some troops are rated A+++? You won't find that in ACW. In the end, though, I think it just boils down to the philosophies of the different designers. I have observed that JT defers a lot to the individual designers, and I think these are different for Napoleonic and ACW.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Major General Gary McClellan
1st Division, XXIII Corps
AoO,USA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 4:52 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:32 am
Posts: 1639
Location: USA
As said, I think they give the ACW less range of affect for quality than Napoleonic because Napoleonic armies tended to have a wider range of soldiers. From highly professional and select groups like the guard units to Prussian conscripts.

But the two optional rules do give you +10% for A and B units in combat and -10% for E/F.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
III Corps, AoM (CSA)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 7:59 am 
So then is a more balanced game to be had by not using these optional rules?

Maj.Gen. Mike Smith
3rd Bde, 1st Div
II Corps
Army of Georgia
[url="http://convolutedmuse.com"]ConvolutedMuse[/url]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:41 am 
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Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2001 12:13 am
Posts: 335
Location: USA
General Smith:

Ultimately,that really depends on the Scenario designer. If the designer assumes that the rule will be used, he'll balance for that rule, if he assume that rule won't be used, he'll balance for that.

For instance, I've got a long delayed (and currently shelved) project to do the 1814 Niagara campaign as a Campaign in War of 1812, and I was assuming that the optional rule would be used, which would be importance, since for the first time, the US had a solid core of infantry that could fairly be considered B (though of course, the Brits generally did).

Major General Gary McClellan
1st Division, XXIII Corps
AoO,USA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 8:51 am 
Gen. McClellan ,

thanks for the information, that's helpful. Now, is there a way to determine what games account for these optional rules versus which don't? In other words can we, as gamers, gather that information so we can make an informed decision whether we wish to use th optional rules or not? Hope that's not a silly question but I really have no clue about this stuff. That may explain my abysmal won/loss record. [:)]

Maj.Gen. Mike Smith
3rd Bde, 1st Div
II Corps
Army of Georgia
[url="http://convolutedmuse.com"]ConvolutedMuse[/url]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:16 am 
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Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2001 12:13 am
Posts: 335
Location: USA
Sadly, unless the designer's notes indicate it (or I've seen a few scenarios where the descrips make a statement), there's no reliable way to tell what the Designers think should be your "optional" rules.

Major General Gary McClellan
1st Division, XXIII Corps
AoO,USA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:40 am 
Well, I appreciate the information Gary. As I mentioned earlier it is helpful in understanding the HPS system better. [:)]

Maj.Gen. Mike Smith
3rd Bde, 1st Div
II Corps
Army of Georgia
[url="http://convolutedmuse.com"]ConvolutedMuse[/url]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:34 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2001 5:01 am
Posts: 564
Location: USA
You can always open up any OOB file in a text editor and look at the rating given units.

Any line starting with a U is a unit. The first number is the maximum number of men that unit will have the second number runs from 1 trhough six. This is the quality rating. 1 = F; 2 = E; 3 = D; 4 = C; 5 = B; and 6 = A. (For the ACW/EAW game engines.)

So you can look at how the designer set up the OOB files to see if they thought the optional rule would be used or not.

MajGen Al 'Ambushed' Amos
3rd "Amos' Ambushers" Bde, Cavalry Division, XX Corps, AoC
The Union Forever! Huzzah!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:38 pm 
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Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2002 4:36 pm
Posts: 114
Location: Australia
Thanks for the feedback.



<font color="gold"><b>Brig. Gen. </b></font id="gold">Paul Wakeman, <font color="limegreen">Sharpshooter</font id="limegreen">
[url="http://www.acwgc.org/acwgc_members/paw/Wakeman.html"]OBD[/url]
Kansas Dragoons
<font color="beige">2nd Cavalry Division </font id="beige">
<b>XIX Corps, AoS,<font color="gold"> USA</font id="gold"></b>

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:18 am 
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Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 12:44 pm
Posts: 1200
Location: USA
Can't tell the players without a program...

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