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Night time fatigue question http://www.wargame.ch/board/acwgc/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=11159	Page 1 of 1

Author:	Boyd [ Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:11 pm ]
Post subject:	Night time fatigue question
Anybody else of the opinion that the fatigue penalty given during night time movement (10 fatigue points) isn't enough? A unit can march all night, with 10 min rest stops I suppose, and only generate about 70-80 point of fatigue. That's not going to affect their fighting abilities during battle much the next day. I would think they'd be pretty tired and should have more fatigue. Also, what about a regt that doesn't move during the night, but spends the whole time attempting to build breastworks? Shouldn't they receive fatigue points? Thoughts? BG Boyd Denner "Alabama Brigade" 1/3/III ANV "God Bless the Alabamians" Gen. Robert E. Lee - The Wilderness 1864

Author:	Michael Smith [ Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:34 pm ]
Post subject:
Hi Boyd, A good question.....For me it seems relevant to ask what kind of movement? If a unit is using good roads why would the incur fatigue any more or less than daytime travel? If anything they may incur less fatigue given heat isn't so much an issue. On the other hand if they're traveling through woods and thickets that fatigue should be significantly higher whether its during the day or evening I think. Furthermore, I've noticed fatigue rates vary even with units that haven't moved at all during the night nor have any contact with the enemy. Seems rather strange and weirdly random in my view. I don't know how the designers set this up though so I could be off base but just how things seem to me. Hopefully, one of the more knowledgeable members can offer better information. Maj.Gen. Mike Smith 3rd Bde, 1st Div II Corps Army of Georgia [url="http://convolutedmuse.com"]ConvolutedMuse[/url]

Author:	Rich Walker [ Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:43 pm ]
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Both Atlanta and Chickamauga has 25 FA points Lt. Col. Richard Walker I Corps Army of the Mississippi 2nd Brigade, 3rd Division "Defenders of Tennessee"

Author:	Boyd [ Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:13 am ]
Post subject:
Okay, thanks Rich. I hadn't noticed that yet in your two new games. Thanks! <blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rich Walker</i> <br />Both Atlanta and Chickamauga has 25 FA points Lt. Col. Richard Walker I Corps Army of the Mississippi 2nd Brigade, 3rd Division "Defenders of Tennessee" <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> BG Boyd Denner "Alabama Brigade" 1/3/III ANV "God Bless the Alabamians" Gen. Robert E. Lee - The Wilderness 1864

Author:	Boyd [ Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:15 am ]
Post subject:
Hi Michael, I guess I was mostly thinking about the resulting lack of sleep causing higher fatigure for each night time turn they were moving whether it was on a road or through the woods. Boyd <blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Michael Smith</i> <br />Hi Boyd, A good question.....For me it seems relevant to ask what kind of movement? If a unit is using good roads why would the incur fatigue any more or less than daytime travel? If anything they may incur less fatigue given heat isn't so much an issue. On the other hand if they're traveling through woods and thickets that fatigue should be significantly higher whether its during the day or evening I think. Furthermore, I've noticed fatigue rates vary even with units that haven't moved at all during the night nor have any contact with the enemy. Seems rather strange and weirdly random in my view. I don't know how the designers set this up though so I could be off base but just how things seem to me. Hopefully, one of the more knowledgeable members can offer better information. Maj.Gen. Mike Smith 3rd Bde, 1st Div II Corps Army of Georgia [url="http://convolutedmuse.com"]ConvolutedMuse[/url] <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> BG Boyd Denner "Alabama Brigade" 1/3/III ANV "God Bless the Alabamians" Gen. Robert E. Lee - The Wilderness 1864

Author:	mihalik [ Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:29 am ]
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I think the purpose of nighttime fatigue and the reason I support it is that it penalizes moving 24 hours a day. There are examples of units who marched through the night, but they are pretty rare and unfortunately you can't compare their effectiveness to what it might have been had they been fully rested. Except Streight's men, who were falling asleep over their gunsights when Forrest captured them. It would be nice to have a forced march and resultant straggler rule as well, but it is not a priority. As to fatigue for making breastworks at night, I don't think it is necessary. It should take a certain amount of work to build an adequate breastwork, and if it takes a unit all night to entrench that means the men were taking their time or working in shifts. I don't think an entrenching unit should be able to recover fatigue though. Don't know if they do or not. I know units with skirmishers deployed do recover fatigue. The penalties for moving off-road are severe enough I think. Each night turn is an hour, so you only move one-third as fast as during the day, plus if you try to move in line you disrupt and move one-sixth as fast. MG Mike Mihalik 1/III/AoMiss/CSA

Author:	Boyd [ Sun Jul 15, 2007 5:00 am ]
Post subject:
Good explanation MG Mihalik. Thanks. BG Boyd Denner 1/3/III ANV BG Boyd Denner "Alabama Brigade" 1/3/III ANV "God Bless the Alabamians" Gen. Robert E. Lee - The Wilderness 1864

Author:	Dwight McBride [ Sun Jul 15, 2007 7:03 am ]
Post subject:
I figure I chime in with criticisms enough that I should also remember to contribute to threads when I might agree with the system . . . Penalties for nightime movement and activity are fine as they are. Remember that it's not only the points penalty that matters, but also the forsaking of fatigue recovery. Myself, when night is drawing nigh, I hunker down in advance, so I don't miss any of the turns offering recovery. Sincerely, Brig Gen Dwight McBride 2nd Brigade/2nd Division I Corps/AOP/USA

Author:	ALynn [ Sun Jul 15, 2007 7:51 am ]
Post subject:
But "fatigue" in the games isn't physical tiredness, it is battle fatigue, i.e. shell shock. Until we have a separate physical fatigue level that will determine a units actual level of tiredness (movement reduction if their fatigue rises above a certain level, fire accuracy reduction for the same reason, etc.) then we can't accurately reflect that physical fatigue in any way. Battle fatigue is merely a measure of how close a unit is to cracking under the pressure of combat, not whether they could force march 10 miles. Regards, Major Gen. Alan Lynn CSA Chief of Staff 3rd Bgde, 3rd Cav Div, II Corps, AoA God Bless <><

Author:	Boyd [ Sun Jul 15, 2007 10:17 am ]
Post subject:
General Lynn, Wouldn't the "morale" be a better word of what you're describing ...battle fatigue, shell shock etc? I always understood "fatigue" in the game to be a combination of physical tiredness and morale. Regards, BG Boyd Denner 1/3/III ANV BG Boyd Denner "Alabama Brigade" 1/3/III ANV "God Bless the Alabamians" Gen. Robert E. Lee - The Wilderness 1864

Author:	warbison [ Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:13 pm ]
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<font face="Book Antiqua"><font size="4"><font color="beige">Gents, Good thread, I know that if a unit is engaged in building breastworks they do not recover any fatigue until they have stopped or completed their work. I always try to rest first to recover fatigue and then begin to build breastworks. Respectfully, </font id="beige"></font id="size4"></font id="Book Antiqua"> <font color="orange"><font size="4">Nick Kunz <font color="white">General Chief of the Armies Confederate States of America</font id="white"> ACWGC Cabinet Member </font id="orange"></font id="size4">

Author:	KWhitehead [ Mon Jul 16, 2007 1:34 am ]
Post subject:
Don't get hung up on the name. Fatigue can be anything you want it to be assuming its justified. What Fatigue is is the equivalent of decreasing a unit's morale one level for every level of fatigue. It isn't exactly this since a level of fatigue does change the unit's equivalent morale level by one but also reduces combat effectiveness one level while morale changes it on every two level change. HPS used the fatigue number to measure Combat Fatigue in the past. Now they have added night march to it. There is no reason you can't let the number be affected by anything that you consider a long term morale affect. This could include force march, entering the battlefield after marching all day. Seeing General Moose. It would be nice to have separate measures for the shock affect of being in combat versus the physical affects of no sleep, marching to much, not having eaten (remember an army marches on its stomach), etc. LG. Kennon Whitehead Chatham Grays III Corps, AoM (CSA)

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