American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)

Well, I'm glad it's an optional rule for you. But I disagree with your summation.

Points are not lost, you just don't gain any. There are many reports, one by Wade Hampton comes to mine, that stated he was unable to remove captured arty due to the caisson horses being dead or run off. So arty is left to the last side in possession. So by all means, the possessor of the field should have possession on the arty. So you can't lose capture points. If you no longer possess them, they are no longer captured.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

Sorry Colonel,

But I don't see your point. You captured some guns but were driven off the field by the enemy. Sounds like you lost the battle. Why would you get points for guns you don't have?

The old system gave points right away and the guns magically disappeared. Not realistic. The new system is not perfect, but it is much closer to the way things were.


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by tony best</i>
<br />Gun capture is optional. I no longer will play with this option.
1. you capture and spike guns-get the points
2. Your opponent recaptures the guns-you lose the points.

Okay -right? Seems fair enough but in effect it just gives the game to whomever is the last to hold the field. Thus, one might have made a fine attack taking the ground and the enemy guns and then you make a nice delaying retreat but your superior forced opponent retakes the field. Not only does he get the objective points but you lose the gun capture points-a double whammy. The only alternitive is to move your guns up and blast them into oblivion at point blank range so the points are permenant-does htis make any reality sense? I know I have not explained this well but I hope y`all can see my point.[:p]

Colonel Tony Best
Army of Georgia

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

2nd Lt. Beno
5/2/I AoP
USA

I think the capture rule is immaterial to the question of whether spiked artillery units should be able to act as spotters for the hex they occupy! In my mind, other than when actually captured or re-captured, a spiked unit would be a completely abandoned unit. Who's left to see anything at all? If HPS could fix that I'd have no complaint.

Maj. Jos. C. Meyer,
4th Brg'd, Cav. Div., 14th Corps, Army of the Cumberland

What Bill said. And Col B also. The Confederates overran a number of Union guns on the second day at Gettysburg but couldn't keep them. Union troops recaptured and re-manned the guns with the original crews, because the crews had the sense to abandon the guns before they took a serious manpower loss.

The artillery capture rule is not perfect, as Col B said, but it is a lot better than before. Now, if only John can create separate crews we can take another step toward reality, in my humble opinion.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA

Joe- Your concern has been addressed and corrected. All upgrades will be released with the next new game and then later to the older games.

Bill- You will mostly likely disagree, but the idea of ownership is implied by physical possession. If there is no living person claiming possession, then the object is nothing more then garbage on the field of battle. If you drop a $10 bill on the ground, it is not owned until someone picks it up. If dropped again, it again becomes unowned.

Also, about arty reverting to the original owner. That is a misunderstanding. The arty becomes uncrewed and the captors no longer receive capture points.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

BTW, You have to wait one turn to fire captured arty.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

Alright, try this.

Let's say the North gains a battery in a melee, but as battles happen, the southern forces counter-attack. The attack was so successful, that all Union forces flee the field. In their pursuit of the fleeing yankees, the rebels never bothered to reoccupy the arty battery that had been previously captured but left behind by the Yankees. Will it be said that the Yankees still own the arty battery?

BTW, trying to equate captured arty and objective hexes is flawed. Objective hexes are needed for the A/I. I try not to make them game winning features.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

Thanks for promising the fix, Rich! I am most appreciative.

"Captured, non-spiked, artillery units count full value towards victory conditions, while spiked captured artillery counts half value." This item explanantion from the Artillery Capture Rule, which Bill correctly quoted, seems to cause some confusion as far as when those mentioned casualty points appear and disappear. Perhaps some additional explanation is needed, as you have been trying to provide! Like the unclaimed, $10 bill example you used, I realize that captured guns, whether spiked or un-spiked, are simply objects of worth, belonging to whichever side currently and physically <i>occupies</i> them. But should not the above quoted explanation also contain the caveat, "These points are awarded as long as the capturing side continues to occupy the hex involved."?


Maj. Jos. C. Meyer,
4th Brg'd, Cav. Div., 14th Corps, Army of the Cumberland

Joe,

Since unoccupied arty is no longer considered captured, is your caveat needed? By definition, you only receive VPs for "captured" arty, so if the arty is unoccupied, it is no longer captured.

Rich


Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

One more thing. Though a unit is required for occupation, we made it as flexible as possible. Any unit will surfice. Leaders, supply wagons, etc...

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

Hi, Rich,

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>BTW, trying to equate captured arty and objective hexes is flawed. Objective hexes are needed for the A/I. I try not to make them game winning features.</i><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Which I think is a flaw in a lot of your scenarios. Why fight for terrain that isn't worth the price? In many battles in the Civil War, the victors lost significantly more casualties than the losers but gained the field. Why would they bother if the field isn't worth much?


MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA

Hi Mike,

Well, I suppose that is a bit off the topic of this thread, and a philosophical matter.

First, I do try to make certain hexes worth the effort, but in general, few battles I've designed were fought for land possession.

Take for example <b>Shiloh</b>, was Johnston's objective Pittsburg Landing, or the Union armies destruction?

<b>Atlanta</b>- Sherman wanted to defeat Johnson's army, not take Atlanta.

<b>Chickamauga</b>- Do you think either side cared much for the land?

On the other hand, I've designed many scns that have valuable objective hexes. Sometimes, land is very important. It just depends.

But in general, I like to design battles that are won by the defeat of the enemy's army, not possession of a few hexes of dirt.

On the other hand, I'm always open to suggestion.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

How many hands was that, Rich[:)]?

2nd Lt. Beno
5/2/I AoP
USA

Civil War Generals had both preset victory flags and flags that simply popped up on hexes that happened to be fought over signifigantly....so the battles might end up taking a different track than first thought, or to the way they were designed....plus their AI worked just fine without victory hexes at all....course it wasn't very good with or without them....the hexes popping up was considered a nice innovation at the time....Regards, Hank

BG Hank Smith
Army of Georgia
Smith's Texas Division
Smith's Corp

Since supply wagons switch sides when captured, perhaps it would make sense for guns to do the same?

It also seems logical that guns should require a new crew, instead of having to be "garrisoned" by a unit, as is currently the case.

I agree that creating separate gun crews would be worthwhile. These could then:
a./ come under fire and suffer casualties
b./ abandon the guns before, or as a result, of melee
c./ recrew recaptured (or other captured) guns

Separate <i><b>horses</b></i> too would surely be the best of determining whether a battery can limber up and move off. When the guns are unlimbered, the horses could be placed safely in the rear. The horses might suffer losses, get captured, or be transferred to a different battery if say their own battery is captured. In addition, the horses themselves might be worth victory points.

Brig. Gen. Rich White
3rd Brig. III Corps
Phantom Cav. Div.
ANV