American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)

I suppose many are disappointed that no points are awarded for spiking artillery, because the expectation for points-awarded has been established long since by other practices. Points are awarded---for example---for leaders dispatched, and supply wagons captured, even though one could also say "well the plus is simply depriving the enemy of their services."

Personally, I have no problem with keeping a presence in a captured-artillery hex, because I've never had a battle where I didn't have max-fatigue troops available to babysit them! Right now, I'm fighting a Battle of Shiloh where I've got almost 2500 points worth of overran artillery, and a waiting list for max-fatigue units to occupy them! . . . as long as these games depend on points for winning, I'll have to keep sacrificing historical practices to get those points. That's just the facts of gaming, let alone life!

Sincerely,
Brig Gen Dwight McBride
V Corps/AOP/USA

Remember, it's all optional.

The Capture/Spike rule is a good addition, but not perfect.

I would rather use the limited programming time we have for further enhancements.

We have three important upgrades coming very very soon.




Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

Three upgrades? Marvelous.

Rich . . . I for one appreciate all the hard work the HPS team does. Not only in planning and delivering new disks and patches to the old, but also in fielding the mountain of "suggestions" you're always exposed to.

Thank you all.

Sincerely,
Brig Gen Dwight McBride
V Corps/AOP/USA

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">We have three important upgrades coming very very soon.
Lt. Col. Richard Walker <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I hope that spiked guns, specifically from the enemy, will be regulated to a null and void value on the map.

I am referring that when a spiked enemy cannon is behind my lines and its hex not shared with one of my units, that my routed units behave as though it is an active enemy unit, even to running away from safety, running toward and into the midst of enemy units, a completely nonsensical event costing a lot of victory points.
This occurs even when my units were the last to occupy the hex.
Currently, the only way to prevent this is to leave a unit, any unit, with the immobile, spiked enemy cannons.

BG Ross McDaniel
2nd Bde, 3rd Div, III Corps, AoG, CSA

"Find out just what the people will submit to and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." - Frederich Douglass

This will appear as a fix, not an upgrade. It will not be a part of the next title, but will appear as a patch for all existing titles when they are released.

So unoccupied enemy spiked guns will not cause routed friendly units to run in the opposite direction, toward the real enemy.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Ross McDaniel</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">We have three important upgrades coming very very soon.
Lt. Col. Richard Walker <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I hope that spiked guns, specifically from the enemy, will be regulated to a null and void value on the map.

I am referring that when a spiked enemy cannon is behind my lines and its hex not shared with one of my units, that my routed units behave as though it is an active enemy unit, even to running away from safety, running toward and into the midst of enemy units, a completely nonsensical event costing a lot of victory points.
This occurs even when my units were the last to occupy the hex.
Currently, the only way to prevent this is to leave a unit, any unit, with the immobile, spiked enemy cannons.

BG Ross McDaniel
2nd Bde, 3rd Div, III Corps, AoG, CSA

"Find out just what the people will submit to and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." - Frederich Douglass

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rich Walker</i>
<br />Points are awarded for capturing spiked guns, but not for the act alone. Put simply, the reward is simply to prevent them from firing in the future.

Now, if you decide to suicide troops to spike, that's your decision.

Frankly, it sounds like you want points for bravely killing your own troops in a suicide charge. Personally, I think a court-marshal would be more appropriate.

Come on! LOL

lt.col..R. Walker,

sir, not trying to cause a riff with you or cause bad blood, i would like to express how iam offended by you statement that i should be court-marshalled.
i would like to ask you a question:

i have just finshed a battle and a campaign at resca,
both of which lasted only 15 turns with the union losses at or about 29,000. now on a historical level the union lost around 6,000.
in keeping the games on a historical level how would you as union commander conduct this engagement. you could set up your 200 pices of arty and keep your inft just beyond range and blast away for 30 turns and recive a victory out of it, cause if the rebs come out you would attack them at 2-3 to 1 odds and the rebs dont stand a chance.
or would you send you troops to attack the reb earthworks knowing your were sending them in on a sucide mission. would you then wish to send yourself to a court-marshall. to make these battles interesting the rebs sometimes have to do things above the norm or we can just get pounded by tons of arty every time.


Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

BG. VANNADA
HEADQUATERS:
2nd INFT.DIV.
2ND CORPS
AOA

http://www.geocities.com/heydreck/AOA.h ... 3437?20075

Simply a jest, my apologizes

As for Resaca, I would say if one strategy didn't work try another.


Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

The new artillery rules are nice but they do have some holes in them that need plugging. In any scenario where the attacking player knows that the defender will have to give ground the attacker can use guns like tanks knowing that he will not lose any VP due to them being killed. This could easily be corrected by a small VP award for spiking guns and losing crews.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
III Corps, AoM (CSA)

That's not exactly true.

Points are awarded if you occupy the captured/Spike arty.
Points are awarded for destroyed cannon.
Arty can be turned and fired if captured
Arty will be rendered useless if spiked.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by KWhitehead</i>
<br />The new artillery rules are nice but they do have some holes in them that need plugging. In any scenario where the attacking player knows that the defender will have to give ground the attacker can use guns like tanks knowing that he will not lose any VP due to them being killed. This could easily be corrected by a small VP award for spiking guns and losing crews.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
III Corps, AoM (CSA)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

I see after rereading your scenario, you mean you want points for charging arty you know you can't keep.

Again, you would render them useless, but your talking about charging arty in a risky venture, knowing that you will be retreating. Not so sure that's a good tactic.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by KWhitehead</i>
<br />The new artillery rules are nice but they do have some holes in them that need plugging. In any scenario where the attacking player knows that the defender will have to give ground the attacker can use guns like tanks knowing that he will not lose any VP due to them being killed. This could easily be corrected by a small VP award for spiking guns and losing crews.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
III Corps, AoM (CSA)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

Hi, Rich,

I think what General Whitehead is saying is that since the attacker is not going to lose any points unless a gun is destroyed, it is to his advantage to advance sections ahead of the troops. If a crew happens to be killed, no points lost. If enemy infantry seize the
section, stacks of artillery and infantry behind the guns will make them wish they hadn't. I have successfully used this tactic myself in the Perryville battle. It just isn't very historic. Hopefully one day we will get real crews who can suffer real casualties. The subject was broached at Tillercon II and received favorable comment, but I haven't heard much about it since.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA

Well, it seems "as is" there are negative consequences, for advancing arty. As you mentioned, they can be spiked, destroyed, or uncrewed. All of these are bad things for the attacker. And destroyed arty are worth VPs. Spiked guns become useless, and uncrewed arty require troops to be lost if the arty is to be recrewed. These are all seem enough to me. But things could change.

As for the Arty crew. Make a specific suggestion either here or send an email. I'm looking for new ones.



<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mihalik</i>
<br />Hi, Rich,

I think what General Whitehead is saying is that since the attacker is not going to lose any points unless a gun is destroyed, it is to his advantage to advance sections ahead of the troops. If a crew happens to be killed, no points lost. If enemy infantry seize the
section, stacks of artillery and infantry behind the guns will make them wish they hadn't. I have successfully used this tactic myself in the Perryville battle. It just isn't very historic. Hopefully one day we will get real crews who can suffer real casualties. The subject was broached at Tillercon II and received favorable comment, but I haven't heard much about it since.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

Anyone who's studied or read about Civil War-era combat understands that in the majority of cases it was the <i>owning</i> side that spiked their artillery under circumstances of imminent capture, provided that they had both the time and method available. (That method usually involve hammering a rat-tail file, a tool normally carried in the gun's limber, down into the vent hole and then breaking off any protruding portion.) Instances of captured, <i>unspiked</i> artillery being spiked by the capturing side under circumstances of imminent <i>re-capture</i> were rare.

The spiking of artillery by the owning side was an act of last-ditch desperation to keep the guns which were about to be captured from being turned around and use by the enemy. It was an act of <i>loss</i> within the context of the action; that is, it would never have been done if the owning side didn't think that the guns were going to be lost to capture! As such, even though the spiking of the guns denied their use to the enemy for the remainder of that action, the actual spiking itself was, to all intents and purposes, a <i>loss of the guns to the owning side</i>. It was just as much a loss within the action as if the guns had been destroyed by counter-battery fire; ie, dismounted, smashed wheels and/or carriage! Therefore, I see nothing incompatible with awarding to the non-owning side the <i>same</i> number of victory points for each spiked gun as it would have received for destroying the guns by counter-battery fire. It makes no difference. The <i>threat</i> of a gun's capture by enemy infantry or cavalry, in this case, produces the same result as its actual destruction.

Furthermore, the points so awarded should be considered immutable; that is, the points should stand irregardless of a subsequent re-possession by the original owning side!

Such an award forces the <i>gravity of decision</i> by the owning side of whether or not to spike guns in imminent danger of capture. A decision not to spike bespeaks the hope that the guns may be able to be re-captured, but is fraught with the risk that the guns can be turned and used against the original owner.

While instances of a capturing force subsequently spiking the captured guns was rare, it did happen! (Within the aspects of the current game formats it is assumed that the battery or section was captured with its equipments intact!) However, the ultimate loss of the guns to the original owning side was not lessened in any degree as a result of this particular circumstance. It was merely delayed. So too should the suggested awarding of points be made; that is, whatever lesser points were awarded to the capturing side for the <i>capture</i> of the guns, the totals would then be increased to equal those of loss through either destruction or spiking, no matter by whom!

The killing of an artillery crew should be viewed similarly, but also within the context of the action. If the crew is killed, the guns become, for the moment, totally non-operative, but not destroyed or spiked! Moreoever, the games formats already recognize the difference of proficiency and effectiveness between a trained artillery crew and a scavenged infantry or cavalry "replacement crew!" The guns will never again, within the context of the particular action, be able to function as efficienctly with their original crews. In other words, the guns have been deprived of a large measure of their effectiveness. Once again, the owning side has suffered an appreciable <i>loss</i>.

To properly reflect this a suitable number of victory points should be awarded to the opposite side in direct relation to the actual loss experienced. In this case, I would see nothing wrong in awarding up to at least 2/3rd's the value of the guns involved to the non-owning side. If such guns were to be thereafter spiked by their replacement crews or by the enemy's capturing force, then the existing points awarded would be increased to the heretofore stated full gun-loss value.

The logic behind these suggestions is totally derived from the premise that at game's start, each side's artillery units are intrinsic to each side's offensive striking power, and that any diminishment of that power as a result of combat is reflected as victory points for the opponent. Furthermore, it is understood that the offensive striking power of an artillery unit is the result of an inanimate weapon mated with a trained crew. All else should be regarded as immaterial.

Lt.-Col. Jos. C. Meyer,
4th Brg'd, Cav. Div., 14th Corps, Army of the Cumberland