American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)

Guys,

Many of you have vast historical experience and knowledge.

I need some primary historical sources that show captured arty being freely moved and engaged in combat during the same battle in which they were captured.

No secondary stuff. Must be primary source material.

Please post here on the thread.



Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

From PGT Beuregard:

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Withers's Eighteenth Virginia, which I had ordered up from Cocke's brigade, was also on hand in time to follow and give additional effect to the charge, capturing, with the Hampton Legion, several guns, which were immediately turned and served upon the broken ranks of the enemy by some of our officers.

First Bull Run, First Manassas
by T. G. Beauregard
From The Century Magazine,
Vol. XXIX, Nov., 1884
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I found here: http://www.rugreview.com/cw/cwbr.htm

Robert Roda

AoA I Corps
Cavalry Division Artilery

Thanks,

But just for clarification. I don't mean just turning captured guns, I mean limbering, moving and unlimbering captured guns during the same battle they were captured.


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Robert Roda</i>
<br />From PGT Beuregard:

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Withers's Eighteenth Virginia, which I had ordered up from Cocke's brigade, was also on hand in time to follow and give additional effect to the charge, capturing, with the Hampton Legion, several guns, which were immediately turned and served upon the broken ranks of the enemy by some of our officers.

First Bull Run, First Manassas
by T. G. Beauregard
From The Century Magazine,
Vol. XXIX, Nov., 1884
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I found here: http://www.rugreview.com/cw/cwbr.htm

Robert Roda

AoA I Corps
Cavalry Division Artilery
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rich Walker</i>
<br />Thanks,

But just for clarification. I don't mean just turning captured guns, I mean limbering, moving and unlimbering captured guns during the same battle they were captured.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I can't recall any occassions where this took place off the top of my head - battery crews would almost always escape with the horses and limbers - those where the teams hadn't been too shot up to escape and thus the limbers would be forced to be left behind.

I think guns may have been moved by hand, but I doubt batteries were often captured with the horse teams as well as the guns. Guns yes - horses not so much.

Regards,

Lt. Gen. Alan Lynn
Interim CSA CoA
CSA Chief of Staff
3rd Bgde, 3rd Cav Div, II Corps, AoA

God Bless <><

There might still be a few out there, but add one more thing. Are there instances of recaptured arty (Once captured, but then abandoned by the enemy, either by force or by choice), that was later limbered, moved and unlimbered to fire during the same battle it was originally captured.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

I suspect that the cases of capturing a battery with caissons and horses so the gun could be mobile were extremely rare and probably didn't occur during major engagements. This would more than likely occur in a cavalry raid where the guns were quickly overrun. I know of no instance in a battle where the guns were captured and limbered except when some existing artillery unit decided to upgrade their hardware on the fly.

The best description of guns changing hands multiple times is in "We Shall Meet Again - The First battle of Manassas" by McDonald. Starting on page 107 there is description of the taking and retaking of Griffin's and Ricketts' batteries on Henry Hill. The Manassas battle was unique in both sides advanced their batteries in front of their infantry. It also shows the problem for the capturing side to move the guns. In Griffin's battery he lost 55 of 101 horses. The crew probably used the suviving horses to get away. There are examples of infantry dragging guns short distances to bring them back within their lines but generally the guns went to the side that held the field. At Manassas the Confederates captured 28 field pieces with 100 rounds of ammo each (37 caissons). 4 Battery Wagons fully equiped, 64 artillery horses with harnesses. They don't say but is suspect the horses weren't with the guns but running free.

Griffin at about 2 PM sent 2 guns to the right of Ricketts battery. These were overrun by the 33rd Va. The 14th Brooklyn counterattacked and retook the guns. Jackson attack them with the 4th and 27th Va. Griffin had withdrawn his guns still on Ricketts left. The 14th Brooklyn and Ricketts' gunners retreated and the battery was captured as well. The reported losses at this time by Ricketts was 12 men killed, 15 wounded out of 94 and most of the horses lost. The 6th NC jointed the fight attacking on the Union right taking Griffin's two guns again. The 11th and 5th Mass came up, attacked and retook Ricketts guns. The 5th Va then attacked recapturing the battery and Ricketts (guess someone was serving the guns).

Sherman came up and sent the 69th NY in to recapture the guns. At this time men were detailed from the 38th NY to drag off three of the cannon. These were moved back 300 yards to Sudley Road. Jackson advanced again retaking all eight guns. The fight on the Hill lasting 2 hours. Griffin and Ricketts batteries lost 104 horses.

In this narrative there was no indication that the Confederates tried to fire the captured guns. This was probably due to the raw troops not knowing how to.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
III Corps, AoM (CSA)

The Battle of Cedar Creek where Jubal Early routed Phil Sheridan's command while he was absent(Oct 1864) and captured 18 to 24 union guns (accounts differ) is the most likely episode.
http://users.aol.com/dmsmith001/cedar.html a detailed account
However, I have not been able to find an account of the progress of the captured guns.
If they were captured in one location and recaptured by Sheridan's men at a distant, different location, that would establish at least one incident that would justify moving captured guns during the same day.
Here is one good account at a site with detailed OBs:
http://www.history.army.mil/books/staff ... battle.htm
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The attack opened at <font color="yellow">0500</font id="yellow"> when Kershaw's Division rose up, delivered a thundering volley, and rushed the trenches of Colonel Joseph Thoburn's First Division, VIII Corps. One brigade dissolved in minutes as dazed, half-dressed men ran for safety. One Southerner said the scene gave a new meaning to the word panic. The First Brigade of the division, called under arms by its alert brigadier, Colonel Thomas Wildes, minutes before the assault, fought briefly in its position. Then two of its three regiments successfully delayed rearward, fighting for nearly half an hour until they reached the Pike. A few minutes after Kershaw's attack, Gordon's corps smashed into Colonel Rutherford B. Hayes' Second Division, VIII Corps which desperately resisted for a few minutes. Then, while a small group remained and delayed courageously, many of its men fled to the rear. As soon as Wharton heard Kershaw's attack, he closed up to the Cedar Creek bridge. However, he could go no farther until the XIX Corps units guarding it could be dislodged. Early joined him at about 0515, coming over from Kershaw's position. <font color="yellow">The Confederate artillery raced forward to Hupp's Hill, going into battery against the XIX Corps by about 0520. <font color="yellow">The final blows to the VIII Corps were delivered by seven of their own guns which were captured during Kershaw's first rush.</font id="yellow"> </font id="yellow">Heroic efforts on the part of the Federal gunners saved the other nine....
<i>(Sheridan returned about 1030. The union counteroffensive during the afternoon started about 1500 hrs and the main attack by 1600 </i>)
The disaster was compounded when a small bridge near Spangler's Mill on US 11 south of Strasburg broke. This caused a jam which prevented any rolling stock from moving farther south. Thus, most of the guns and wagons captured in the morning, plus nearly all those belonging to Early's forces, had to be abandoned to the rampaging Federal cavalry.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> The next question would be...were the lost union guns recaptured in or about their original positions? The rebels had the wherewithal to crew and use at least some of them against retreating yanks within minutes.
The guns were recaptured along with many rebel guns during the afternoon battle when a bridge was broken in the confederate rear preventing transport retreat. I have found no indication whether they were in original positions or limbered to be transported to the rear.

BG Ross McDaniel
2nd Bde, 3rd Div, III Corps, AoG, CSA

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rich Walker</i>
<br />Guys,

Many of you have vast historical experience and knowledge.

I need some primary historical sources that show captured arty being freely moved and engaged in combat during the same battle in which they were captured.

No secondary stuff. Must be primary source material.

Please post here on the thread.



Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

<u>O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME XXXVII/1 [S# 70]
MAY 26- JUNE 29, 1864--The Lynchburg Campaign.
No. 1.--Reports of Maj. Gen. David Hunter, U.S. Army, commanding Department of West Virginia, including operations June 2-July 14.
</u>

<i>while our attention was directed to the rear of the column a detachment of the enemy's cavalry fell upon the artillery en route and got possession of two batteries, spiking the guns, disabling the carriages, and carrying off the horses. They were presently driven off by our cavalry, losing some 30 men, killed, wounded, and prisoners, and the guns were recaptured. Owing to the loss of horses and the breaking of the carriages we were obliged to abandon 8 pieces with their limbers and caissons, after burning all their carriages.
</i>

<u>O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME XXXVIII/3 [S# 74]
May 1-September 8, 1864.--THE ATLANTA (GEORGIA) CAMPAIGN
No. 486.--Report of Capt. Francis De Gress, Battery H, First Illinois Light Artillery.</u>

<i>The enemy charged our works about 4 p.m.; was repulsed in my front, but broke through our center, and changing front charged my battery, which I was obliged to leave after spiking the guns, and after all my support had left me. As soon as my battery was recaptured I had the guns unspiked and fired again at the retreating enemy. One of my guns, injured since the 25th of June, burst at the third round. My losses(*) on that day were very heavy--14 men, 39 horses, 1 limber, ambulance, and harness. Replaced lost horses and harness from Battery A, and had battery in marching order by 9 o'clock the following day. July 27, withdrew the battery and marched all night, with division, to the extreme right of our line; went into position in rear of our line, and advanced into position July 31, firing at the rebel forts and city.
</i>

<u>O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME 2 [S# 2] -- CHAPTER IX.
JULY 16-22, 1861.--The Bull Run, or Manassas, Campaign, Virginia.
No. 88. -- Reports of Col. J. B. Kershaw, Second South Carolina Infantry.
</u>

<i>I detailed some of my men under General Johnson, Hagood and Col. Allen J. Green, of South Carolina, who were doing duty in my regiment as volunteer privates, each take charge of one of the captured guns and turn them on the enemy, while Captain Kemper took charge of two others, and they continued firing until ordered to desist by one of our general officers.
</i>

<u>O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME XI/1 [S# 12]
MAY 31- JUNE 1, 1862-- Battle of Fair Oaks, or Seven Pines, Va.
No. 103. -- Report of Maj. Gen. Daniel H. Hill, C. S. Army, commanding division.
</u>

<i>Redes took skillful advantage of this commotion, and moved up his brigade in beautiful order and took possession of the redoubts and rifle pits. So rapid was the advance that six pieces were abandoned by the Yankees. These Rodes had turned upon the retreating column with effect. Carter galloped up with his pieces, and these, with the captured guns, successfully <ar12_944> repulsed an attempt of fresh Yankee troops to recapture the works.
</i>

<u>.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME XII/2 [S# 16]
AUGUST 16-SEPTEMBER 2, 1862.--Campaign in Northern Virginia.
No. 131.--Report of Col. John B. Walton, Washington (Louisiana) Artillery, of operations August 23-31.
</u>

<i>After firing a short time he moved his battery forward about 400 yards and succeeded in holding the captured battery of four Napoleons, forcing the enemy back and compelling a battery immediately in his front, and which was annoying greatly our infantry, to retire. He then turned the captured guns upon their late owners, and at night brought them from the field, with their horses and harness.
</i>

<u>O.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME XIX/1 [S# 27]
SEPTEMBER 3-20, 1862.-The Maryland Campaign.
No. 268.--Reports of Col. S. Crutchfield, C. S. Army, Chief of Artillery, of operations September 13-19.
</u>

<i>The captured guns being turned over to the quartermaster for removal, I can make no exact return of the number. We had none disabled, and, of course, lost none.
On reaching Shepherdstown late next evening, I met Brig. Gen. W. N. Pendleton, who desired me to return to Harper's Ferry and endeavor to get together batteries of the captured guns and such ammunition as I could and send it to Shepherdstown or the battle-field of Sharpsburg, as our ordinance supplies were getting short and our batteries in an inefficient condition from hard marching and previous fighting. I <ar27_963> therefore returned to Harper's Ferry. After much difficulty I found the quartermaster in charge of the captured guns, and found he had been busy removing them, and in so doing had mismatched the caissons, limbers, and guns to such an extent that after vainly spending half the day at it, I gave up the task of getting together any batteries from among them. The batteries of Captains Brown, Dement, and Latimer had been left at Harper's Ferry, as disabled, on account of the condition of their horses. I therefore had horses turned over to them, filled them up with ammunition, exchanged two of Captain Latimer's 10-pounder Parrotts, whose vent-pieces had burned out in the action of the day before, for two 3-inch rifles of the captured guns, and started them for the battle-field, going on ahead myself. I got there too late in the evening to be able to give any report of the battle.
</i>

<u>.R.-- SERIES I--VOLUME XX/1 [S# 29]
DECEMBER 26, 1862-JANUARY 5, 1863.--The Stone's River or Murfreesborough, Tenn., Campaign.
No. 288.--Report of Capt. James P. Douglas, Texas Battery.
</u>

<i>On the morning of December 31, [1862,] I received orders through Capt. George M. Mathes, chief of artillery of McCown's division, to move to a position in rear of the division, which I accordingly did. Subsequently, about sun-up, I was ordered to advance toward the enemy's lines, and as soon as practicable join my brigade. I ordered the battery forward immediately and rode rapidly in advance to ascertain the position <ar29_937> of the troops. After riding to the point where the enemy's first battery was captured, I found that the brigade had driven the enemy, and was advancing rapidly. I returned to the battery and put my horses to their best speed, to assist in holding the advanced position obtained. When I arrived within 150 yards of the captured battery (my battery being at its best speed), I discovered a large body of Federal infantry drawn up in line in front of the position occupied by the captured guns, and about 125 yards from my lead team. I immediately halted the battery and gave the command, "Front into line." While this was [being] executed, I discovered that the enemy did not know whether I was friend or foe. I therefore gave the command, "Left oblique and action front," thus bringing my guns into position not bearing exactly on the enemy. During this time the enemy had unfolded and waved conspicuously the Stars and Stripes. As no time was to be lost, I ordered the gunners to commence firing with canister. The enemy, doubtless hearing my command, opened a brisk fire, wounding 1 man and killing 3 horses and wounding 3. The cannoneers under the circumstances acted with great coolness, and in a moment threw a rapid and deadly fire into the enemy's ranks. They stood but a few discharges, when they retreated in considerable disorder.
In these rapid movements some of my horses had become entangled and broken their harness, and one of my caissons in running over a log had broken the pintle-pin. Some time was consumed in righting these things, during which time I was ordered to employ a portion of my horses in conveying the captured guns to the rear.
</i>


<u>O.R.--SERIES I--VOLUME XXVII/1 [S# 43] -- Gettysburg Campaign
No. 331. -- Report of Lieut. Edwin B. Dow,
Sixth Maine Battery.
</u>

<i>At 7.30 p.m. I was relieved by Major McGilvery, who placed Seeley's battery, under command of Lieutenant James, in my position, and I retired into the edge of the woods. Lieutenant Rogers, of this battery, in reconnoitering found the enemy had retired from «57RR--VOL XXVII, PT I» <ar43_898> the field in haste, and had not taken the captured guns with them, nor even spiked them. He immediately reported the fact to me, and as many men as I could spare were sent under his charge to bring them off the field. With the aid of the Garibaldi Guard, of New York, he brought off, under a fire from the enemy's sharpshooters, four 3-inch rifled guns and two limbers belonging to Company I, Fifth Regulars, which we immediately limbered on our caissons and ran to the rear.
I was then ordered by Major McGilvery to go to the front and see if any other public property was on the field, which order I obeyed, and discovered four light 12-pounder guns and a limber of the Ninth Massachusetts Battery. The remnant of the One hundred and fiftieth New York Regiment, although tired and weary, took hold of the guns and ran them up to Lieutenant James' position, where I turned them over to Lieutenant James, not having force sufficient to bring' them off the field. Lieutenant James brought the guns off, and, I understood, turned them over to the Ninth Massachusetts Battery.
By order of Major McGilvery, I reported to Generals Tyler and Hunt what we had done. General Hunt ordered me to go to the rear near the reserve train with the I did so, and next morning had the satisfaction of returning the guns of Company I, Fifth Regulars, guns to their commanding officer.
</i>

I think from this and the others I have reviewed, that you will find that captured guns were often used against their owners(from their original position) but seldom moved about freely and used aggressively after capture(or recapture). More often then not horses/men were stripped from other batteries/units not engaged and used to drive out or haul out the guns by hand to the rear for reequiping.


Brig. Gen. Phil Driscoll
1st Brigade/1st Division/VCorps/AoP

Thanks guys, if you find any more, just keep posting them.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

I've scanned three pages from Battles and Leaders of the Civil War about a battery at Atlanta:

http://www.verzend.be/v/4562130/IMG_0329.jpg.html
http://www.verzend.be/v/4890683/IMG_0330.jpg.html
http://www.verzend.be/v/7900908/IMG_0331.jpg.html


Lt. General Dirk Gross
XIV Corps/AoC

Dirk:

The links do not seem to be working.

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
General, Commanding, Army of Ohio

ACWGC Cabinet Member
ACWGC Records Site Administrator
</b></font id="gold">

I had exactly zero trouble....the links worked just fine.....Regards, Hank

BG Hank Smith
Army of Georgia
Smith's Texas Division
Smith's Corp

They checked out OK for me. The site will eventually kill the links after 7 days of non-activity though.

Lt. General Dirk Gross
XIV Corps/AoC

Actually found some real documentation. I have been reading "The Artillery of Gettysburg" by Gottfried. It covers placement and movement of the guns of both sides in great detail. Unfortunately, he doesn't give a lot of evidence as to the effectiveness or lack of for the guns.

From the first day, which is all the further I have gotten:

Jones' battery supporting Early's attack against Barlow lost four guns during the exchange with Wilkeson's artilery on Barlow's Knoll. Three guns were temporarially disabled due to loading the wrong size ammo (apparently a common problem with mixed batteries, rifled and napoleons together). These guns were later rendered useable for the 2nd and 3rd day. The fourth gun was permanently disabled when a Federal solid shell hit the face of the muzzle bending it. Heckman's Union battery covering the retreat through Gettysburg was overrun and lost two guns. One of the guns captured was sent to Jones' battalion to replace this lost gun.

Another interesting example of recovery of weapons was: Wheeler's battery lost one cannon during the retreat through Gettysburg. A shell struck its axle breaking it and dismounting the piece. Wheeler ordered his men to throw a prolonge around the barrel and drag it behind a limber. This was done but before reaching safety the rope broke and he had to abandon the gun. On July 5 he returned to the town and found the barrel. He was able to remount the gun in time for it to be with the battery when they left Gettysburg.

A summary of the losses for the first day was:

The 1st and 11th Corps had 54 guns in ten batteries engaged during the day. The Confederates captured and retained three guns. Seven guns were disabled. The Union retained possession of them but they were damaged sufficiently that they could not be used until repaired. The Union artillery suffered 83 men and 8 officer as casualties.

A summary of the number of guns present from 3rd and 2nd Corp for the Rebels wasn't given. They suffered about 30 casualties. No Confederate guns were lost to the the enemy but few guns were disabled. One was the one replaced by the captured gun. Another was a Whitworth that had a broken axile which was repaired. Three guns disabled by use of wrong ammo were put back in action before the battle ended.

The most interesting thing about the first day, particularly for the Union where the guns were used to cover the routing troops so they could reform, is the lack of losses.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
1/1/III AoM (CSA)

Thanks

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"