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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:26 am 
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Hi Mike,

Simply, I'm say that when fired by enemy troops, captured arty fires at 50% FP. Infantry units are not affected. And remember, captured arty cannot fire the same turn they are captured, nor can they fire the same turn they are rotated.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:49 am 
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I'd suggest leaving it alone then rather then adjust.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rich Walker</i>
<br />You guys don't need to limit yourself to the 4 I mentioned. Only one other idea has popped up. The command radius button.

As for Bill's comment, do you guys agree that it would be unhistorical. We certainly don't want that. The only reason I suggested it was for more historical accuracy. Using common sense I assumed that heavy woods would mean less effective fire per 125 yds. Keep in mind that it is too late in the series to add an additional level of woods. JT won't do it. As has been mentioned before, open or clear hexes aren't intended to be seen as treeless terrain. Some light woods could be assumed.

I believe the spy factor of spiked arty has already been removed. I know it's should be with Antietam. Try testing and let me know.

Number 3 was intended to remove clutter and not take the risk of blocking road hexes.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by KWhitehead</i>
<br />1. Might have a problem with regiment size without breaking some regiments down into companies. A large regiment shouldn't be punished because it can't extend into two hexes. Would prefer more realistic limits on how many men could fire out of a hex (120 yard front) and stacking target penalties. In woods a line couldn't form with the same density. For example in clear hex only 500 men could fire and forest this might drop to 250.

2. Definite yes. When enemy guns are spiked or their crews killed the attacker should get some VP. This would force a player that knows he will eventually occupy the ground from being overly agressive with his artillery.

3. Like the idea of removing these artillery spies but there is a problem in spiked guns were not permanent. The side holding the battlefield at the end could usually recover these guns within a day.

4. I don't like the FA idea. Better would be to treat gun and crew as single entity. Counter battery fire would take out a gun. Infantry fire would likewise kill a "gun" but in its case by killing the crew that served it. Better yet, give us artillery crews. 25 men per gun. A six gun battery would have a 150 man crew counter in order for it to operate at full strength and morale. As that crew took casualties and fatigue the gun would proportionally decrease in effectiveness. If the unlimbered gun routed it would be the crew that runs. A crew would only operate its original guns at full effectiveness, other guns at lower but not as low as infantry crewed guns. Add artillery officer too. Give Gen. Hunt something to do[:D]

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
1/1/III AoM (CSA)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

General Mark Nelms
6/3/IX/AoO
"Blackhawk Brigade"
West Point Instructor
Union Cabinet Secretary


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 6:49 am 
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What would I like to see . . . ?

Dynamic line-of-sight . . . or at least within reasonable distance.

Anytime formation change when playing phases method.

Sincerely,
Brig Gen Dwight McBride
V Corps/AOP/USA


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 7:54 am 
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In regards to #'s 2 and 3 I would like to say that I support # 2 but disagree with # 3 for the following reasons.

The spiking of artillery by the owning side was an act of last-ditch desperation to keep the guns which were about to be captured from being turned around and use by the enemy. It was an act of loss within the context of the action; that is, it would never have been done if the owning side didn't think that the guns were going to be lost to capture! As such, even though the spiking of the guns denied their use to the enemy for the remainder of that action, the actual spiking itself was, to all intents and purposes, a loss of the guns to the owning side. It was just as much a loss within the action as if the guns had been destroyed by counter-battery fire; ie, dismounted, smashed wheels and/or carriage! Therefore, I see nothing incompatible with awarding to the non-owning side the same number of victory points for each spiked gun as it would have received for destroying the guns by counter-battery fire. It makes no difference. The threat of a gun's capture by enemy infantry or cavalry, in this case, produces the same result as its actual destruction.

Furthermore, the points so awarded should be considered immutable; that is, the points should stand irregardless of a subsequent re-possession by the original owning side!

Such an award forces the gravity of decision by the owning side of whether or not to spike guns in imminent danger of capture. A decision not to spike bespeaks the hope that the guns may be able to be re-captured, but is fraught with the risk that the guns can be turned and used against the original owner.

While instances of a capturing force subsequently spiking the captured guns was rare, it did happen! (Within the aspects of the current game formats it is assumed that the battery or section was captured with its equipments intact!) However, the ultimate loss of the guns to the original owning side was not lessened in any degree as a result of this particular circumstance. It was merely delayed. So too should the suggested awarding of points be made; that is, whatever lesser points were awarded to the capturing side for the capture of the guns, the totals would then be increased to equal those of loss through either destruction or spiking, no matter by whom!

The killing of an artillery crew should be viewed similarly, but also within the context of the action. If the crew is killed, the guns become, for the moment, totally non-operative, but not destroyed or spiked! Moreoever, the games formats already recognize the difference of proficiency and effectiveness between a trained artillery crew and a scavenged infantry or cavalry "replacement crew!" The guns will never again, within the context of the particular action, be able to function as efficienctly with their original crews. In other words, the guns have been deprived of a large measure of their effectiveness. Once again, the owning side has suffered an appreciable loss.

To properly reflect this a suitable number of victory points should be awarded to the opposite side in direct relation to the actual loss experienced. In this case, I would see nothing wrong in awarding up to at least 2/3rd's the value of the guns involved to the non-owning side. If such guns were to be thereafter spiked by their replacement crews or by the enemy's capturing force, then the existing points awarded would be increased to the heretofore stated full gun-loss value.

The logic behind these suggestions is totally derived from the premise that at game's start, each side's artillery units are intrinsic to each side's offensive striking power, and that any diminishment of that power as a result of combat is reflected as victory points for the opponent. Furthermore, it is understood that the offensive striking power of an artillery unit is the result of an inanimate weapon mated with a trained crew. All else should be regarded as immaterial.



Lt.-Col. Jos. C. Meyer,
4th Brg'd, Cav. Div., 14th Corps, Army of the Cumberland


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:45 am 
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Thanks Joe, some good thoughts.

OK, put simply, we could give the non-owning side 1/2 VPs for the act of spiking, regardless of who does the actual spike.

As for removal, I would like to keep them on the field except for the rare instance that they may block road movement. I think, until proven otherwise, that the spy factor has already been fixed.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 12:34 pm 
New idea:

How about allowing some control over automated defensive fire. A few ideas:

- Hold fire: unit holds fire until >1 (or 2?) fp magnifier would be achieved. Prevents, for example, artillery wasting all your ammo at long range targets.
- Target Priority: infantry, cavalary, artillery, column/mounted/limbered, anti-battery, moving, advancing, meleeing, in open...you get the idea

How about auto limbering artillery if the enemy gets within say 2 hexes *during the enemy movement*. Would require auto retreat to be set on the units in advance.

How about reducing the vp value of artillery in all the games? AFter losing a bunch of tubes, the geographic locations don't seem to matter much and you need to go off on your own quest for artillery vp's. Cut in half or 1/3 in my view.



Col. David Gillies
4th Highlanders/I/XXIV/AoJ


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:52 pm 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Hold fire: unit holds fire until >1 (or 2?) fp magnifier would be achieved. Prevents, for example, artillery wasting all your ammo at long range targets.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

You can do that, now. Just go to "A/I" and select "Adjust Auto Def fire. Min for infantry is usually 2 hexes; for arty min is usually 4 hexes and Med is between minimum range and the max for the unit.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">How about auto limbering artillery if the enemy gets within say 2 hexes *during the enemy movement*. Would require auto retreat to be set on the units in advance.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Again, you already control that. You should KNOW that the enemy is able to melee your guns and you either take the chance or redeploy them, during your movement. If you leave them and don't move or fully protect them, then it is your option.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">How about reducing the vp value of artillery in all the games? AFter losing a bunch of tubes, the geographic locations don't seem to matter much and you need to go off on your own quest for artillery vp's. Cut in half or 1/3 in my view.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Another aspect, as above, that is completely under your control, already. Seldom do you not know that your enemy is going to attack you. Seldom do they suddenly appear at your front and are able to melee in one turn. If you keep your guns out of harms way, you don't have to worry about the points.[;)]

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
General, Commanding, Army of Ohio
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ACWGC Cabinet Member
ACWGC Records Site Administrator
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 3:44 pm 
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Gentlemen!

With Respect to Rich, after only recently returning to the HPS format,, (due to personal circumstances - rather than choice), I will forbear on comment about Rich's proposals.

I would just like to add further to some ideas mentioned, that bear more on the General "running" of the Game.

1. the Toggle Button for Command Range is a MUST!!!! [:D]

2. Dynamic Line of Sight? The 300 foot high commanding General is agreed by All(or nearly All), as being historically unrepresentative.

My idea would run as follows.

Chain of Command -

ARMY LEADER: Lee

CORPS LEADER: Longstreet

BRIGADE LEADER: Law

Law - thru' the eyes of his Regiments, can see what his Brigade can see. IF a Regiment, strays out of his Command Range, <i>THEY </i>can see what <i>THEY </i>can see . . . . <u>INDEPENDENTLY</u>.

SO - click on Law and on the LoS button and ALL hexes, visible to ALL his Regiments, appear in one viewing. (The "sights" from the stray Regiment must be viewed <i>seperately </i>and only by selecting <i>THEM</i>.)

This would simulate a Brigade Commander referring to his Map, Battle Plan and Orders during Battle AND also runners eventually reporting back from the Frontline to the Brigade CO, with info from stray units.

Now . . . select Longstreet. He can "see" what his "In Command" Brigades can see, but must rely on mental agility to piece together his current Overview of the Battle, with intel from Runners belonging to "Out of Command" Brigades.

Finally, by selecting Lee . . . the pattern repeats If Lee is not currently on the Field, WE must perform his Task and generate Our Own Overview of the Battle. If He is present, we need only perform this task concerning Corps, Brigades or Regiments that are out of Command Range of their Parent Unit.

I would be better equipped to cut my own toe-nails, than I would be to fathom the Sorcery of Engine programming, but I would imagine that using the section of the program that allows the "Show Organisation" Toggle to function, would be the Kick-Off point here. Linking that section of the Program with the "LoS" section seems to be simple enough, but then again for all I know . . . . it could be like attempting to rebuild the Space Shuttle using matchsticks and Rubber Bands . . . .

Over to the Experts - Thank God! [:o)]

B.T.W. - This would be optional - of course!! [:p]

Pat.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 5:14 pm 
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David,

Adding to what Ernie said, you can also adjust the VPs given for anything by using the editor.

Pat,

Using the weather feature has greatly reduced the visibilty range. Thought interesting, your suggestion is far too complicated this late in the series.

The command radius button is simple, but as we can only implement 1-2 upgrades per game (if that), it might seem a low priority. But we'll see. Maybe is can be a freeby.

Bill,

Keeping it simple: maybe reduce FP out of woods to 50-75% of normal. I wonder if it could be a random number. That would add a little additional uncertainty.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 12:39 am 
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I will 2nd (or 3rd or 4th...) the mentions of command radius button and anytime formation change when playing in phases.

I keep vacillating (feel like I'm playing <i>Kingmaker</i>, but I'm not a noble... [:p]) on the points for spike artillery issue. I think I just discovered if I shoot at one of my batteries that's been captured and kill a gun, I get points for that. I've no preference either way on points for spiked guns.

Penalizing FP out of difficult terrain gets my vote.

A big Yes to #4!

How hard/easy would it be to port over "No Melee Elimination" from the Nappy games?


Maj Gen Sean Turner
3rd Cavalry Division, "The Bishop's Men"
I Corps
Army of Alabama


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:51 am 
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Rich I dont know about program difficulties but I would like to see out of command units penalized. I think they should only be allowed to move either 1 hex or none at all. Would prevent the wandering scout and delay units. Reinforcments would get a bye until they joined their commands. More realistic I would say.

Colonel Tony Best
Army of Georgia


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:10 am 
I think limiting firepower from woods should not exceed the ranged fire reduction against woods - 40%. So you have a 40% lower chance of being hit while in woods, but at the same time your firepower is reduced by 40%. You must quantify the tradeoff and decide if it is really worth keeping your line right on the edge of the woods.

IF we can't get artillery gun crews I would support a no crew kill and reduced effectiveness based on fatigue instead. Better than nothing.

Command radius button would be smashing. :)

How about an optional "No defensive fire against wagons" rule? Even if the AI is supposed to follow a heirarchy of targets and wagons are at the bottom, I still see too many long range artillery shots against wagons when there are better targets closer in range and LOS.

Regards,

Lt. Gen. Alan Lynn
Interim CSA CoA
CSA Chief of Staff
3rd Bgde, 3rd Cav Div, II Corps, AoA

God Bless <><


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:26 am 
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Maybe consider out of command units in command if in column on a road?


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by tony best</i>
<br />Rich I dont know about program difficulties but I would like to see out of command units penalized. I think they should only be allowed to move either 1 hex or none at all. Would prevent the wandering scout and delay units. Reinforcments would get a bye until they joined their commands. More realistic I would say.

Colonel Tony Best
Army of Georgia

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Maj Gen Sean Turner
3rd Cavalry Division, "The Bishop's Men"
I Corps
Army of Alabama


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:33 am 
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Since new items were mentioned and one of my pet ones[:D], more realistic LOS rules.

I would like to see the current "see all" at 70 hexes changed. I know weather rules cut it down some but I would like to see a more dynamic system.

Adjacent units, like present but shouldn't see any information on morale or fatigue level. Also take away the "detail" results display or at least make it a scenario option that can be turned off. It allows the player to tell almost everything about a firing unit based on the modifiers used.

Units within Rifle range, 2-5 hexes, you can see their approximate strength as you can now.

Units beyond Rifle range up to a mile, you can see their type (infantry, cavalry, artillery) and state (mounted, limbered, line, column) but not their size.

Beyond a mile, limited by weather, you would only see a question mark counter similar to how wagons spot now.

If a unit is in covering terrain (woods, rough, town) the information seen should degrade to like "?" for any unit beyond rifle range.

This would still provide the player with far more information than the real generals had but it would limit the 200 foot general some. Maybe make him a 100 foot general. It would introduce some flexibility into the game play if people could actually make flank marches like Jackson's against something besides the AI.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
1/1/III AoM (CSA)


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 17, 2008 5:30 am 
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As for the "NE" rule, I believe the new melee phase has eliminated alot of the blitz tactics, and though I haven't played with the "NE" rule, from what I understand, I don't like it much and would rather another designer ask for it to be added with their new release.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Sean Turner</i>
<br />I will 2nd (or 3rd or 4th...) the mentions of command radius button and anytime formation change when playing in phases.

I keep vacillating (feel like I'm playing <i>Kingmaker</i>, but I'm not a noble... [:p]) on the points for spike artillery issue. I think I just discovered if I shoot at one of my batteries that's been captured and kill a gun, I get points for that. I've no preference either way on points for spiked guns.

Penalizing FP out of difficult terrain gets my vote.

A big Yes to #4!

How hard/easy would it be to port over "No Melee Elimination" from the Nappy games?


Maj Gen Sean Turner
3rd Cavalry Division, "The Bishop's Men"
I Corps
Army of Alabama

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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