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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:33 am 
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Shoeless,

Read the manual, the game now uses a formula, no table. [:D][;)]

MajGen Al 'Ambushed' Amos

The Union Forever! Huzzah!


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:52 pm 
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When a gun is destroyed by counter-battery fire, one's imagination pictures a gun actually being hit by a projectile and damaged inflicted. But couldn't guns be rendered "destroyed" by enemy artillery fire even without actual impact with a gun? What if a caisson explodes? What if the horses are killed or run off. What if the crew becomes demoralized? What if a wheel is turned askew? Couldn't all these things be described as a gun "destroyed" for this scenario? They are temporarily hors de combat. This type of thing happened all the time during a battle. They come back in the next scenario...

BG Ken 'Muddy' Jones
1/1/XXIII Army of Ohio
USA


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 1:02 pm 
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In general, try not to take things too literally. Abstractions are a part of the game.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Sir Muddy</i>
<br />When a gun is destroyed by counter-battery fire, one's imagination pictures a gun actually being hit by a projectile and damaged inflicted. But couldn't guns be rendered "destroyed" by enemy artillery fire even without actual impact with a gun? What if a caisson explodes? What if the horses are killed or run off. What if the crew becomes demoralized? What if a wheel is turned askew? Couldn't all these things be described as a gun "destroyed" for this scenario? They are temporarily hors de combat. This type of thing happened all the time during a battle. They come back in the next scenario...

BG Ken 'Muddy' Jones
1/1/XXIII Army of Ohio
USA
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:27 pm 
Greetings "Ambushed!"

Focus.

So, let's review for your benefit alone, suh. Replacing a mythical FIRE Combat Results Table with a just as mythically skewered Tiller <i>formula</i>, should likely not prove much comfort nor assist in explaining Lt. Gen. Thayer's regrettable experience. (Regrettable, because his <i>contest</i> merely confirms what many already instinctively know about the possibilities with the current "Historical" Antietam scenario's otherwise a-historically more disposed-to-be outcomes.)

In any case, let us review once more to see if <i>his</i> EDIT makes a blue-belly's whit of a difference; [:X] to wit.,
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">In every case, however, a review of Tiller's FIRE Integer Calculation <i>Formula</i> will confirm what hobbyists, crack scenario designers, and determined editors alike already know,<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">We go to war with the screwy FORMULA we have - not necessarily the ONE we must have, assuming, we still want grand <i>batteries-en-masse</i>.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Tiller's FIRE Integer Calculation Formula skewers the results to favor large units - small arms or batteries - over smallish ones. The Proof is in the generated FIRE integer results. I for one merely seek a level playing field wherein we afterwards see to apply all the morale, range, terrain, and unit quality modifiers. This obviously might prove too hard for some to fathom. We can't help that. Sorry. [:I]

Fld. Lt. D. Shoeless, CSA
Secretary of the Cabinet (Ret)
1st Tenn Provisional Army


<center><i>From a certain point onward there is no turning back. That is the point that must be reached.</i> --F. Kafka</center>


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:33 am 
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The formula method is better than the Table fire results but does have a problem on the low end. A hundred 10 man groups will not do as well as 1000 men firing together. Generally the problem disappears once you have more than company size regiments. Unfortunately, Antietam highlights this problem by having lots of company size regiments. But this is still better than the Talonsoft system that allowed a 25 man unit to be almost as effective as a unit then times its size if you worked the Table shifts just right.

As to guns being destroyed by counter battery fire, they rarely were but they were disabled. The game doesn't simulate this very well. For example in the Battle of Gettysburg only one Rebel gun was actually "destroyed". One of the guns on Benner's Hill took a direct hit to the barrel denting it so it was unusable. Most were just temporarially disabled usually by hits to their carriages. Depending on the damage they were usually put back into services within hours. Hits to the caissons rarely disabled the battery since they were kept well back of the guns. These would more correctly be treated as ammo reductions. The primary cause of a battery being forced to withdraw was damage to their crews and horses. Again this was temporary since they could draw men from the infantry to recrew guns. Horses hurt more. Their loss could force the gun to be withdrawn for the battle to avoid it being overrun.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
1/1/III AoM (CSA)


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:44 am 
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Because this thread is getting long, I'll repeat that I played Jon shortly after his original post and crushed his Union army. So the game is very winnable as the South.

<b>Tips:</b>
One useful tactic is to move and fire complete stacks. This will reduce the advantage of larger units.

Play using the new melee resolution rule.

Play single turn

Also, remember that the VPs needed for a Union major victory are much greater. The Union will need almost 2,500 more points to win.

In short, the Union will have a tough time IMHO.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:19 am 
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One more thing, if your playing the south, don't be afraid to attack if the opportunity presents itself.

Some Union players may decide to hold back and launch a larger coordinated attack, some will want to catch the rebels still trying to find a good spot to defend.

For myself, I would defend the lower bridge crossings with a few pieces of artillery, and about 1000-1500 infantry each. Then bring everything else to attack Hooker and Mansfield's Corps. If the Union attacks, good, counter with everything you can muster. If not, set up a good interor line defense. Remember, that the Union release schedule will prevent the Union from a massive assault. More rebs will arrive by early afternoon. Remember that small units (50-75) will rout more easily, so remember that when positioning them. Perhaps they are best for hole pluggers and flanking attacks.
In my game against Jon, I lost the middle bridge sooner then I expected because I had too many 50-75 man regiments defending that bridge crossing. The Union poured in, but Mansfield and Hooker was already crushed. So it was too late.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:48 pm 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by LG. Kennon Whitehead</i>

The formula method is better than the Table fire results but does have a problem on the low end. A hundred 10 man groups will not do as well as 1000 men firing together.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Sure (yes). just as "eight" 2-gun sections and "eight" 1-gun pieces will not do as well as "four" 6-gun batteries. Odds favor the battery to score gun "eliminated" kills sooner than all section/piece counter-battery fire. Once CSA sections have been reduced to 1-gun pieces, the battle for tactical supremacy will be over.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rich Walker</i>
<br />Because this thread is getting long, I'll repeat that I played Jon shortly after his original post and crushed his Union army. So the game is very winnable as the South.

<b>Tips:</b>
One useful tactic is to move and fire complete stacks. This will reduce the advantage of larger units.

Play using the new melee resolution rule.

Play single turn

Also, remember that the VPs needed for a Union major victory are much greater. The Union will need almost 2,500 more points to win.

In short, the Union will have a tough time IMHO.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Good job, Rich. Appreciate your shared tactical insights. (I know from following the threads of late that play balance remains a key priority of yours. Kudos!)

I would be sure and clear, however, not to mistake or confuse <i>play balance</i> with designing a game around <i>a level playing field</i>. (Risk and Monopoly achieve both, although some might claim that whoever goes first - Monopoly? - or goes last - Risk? - may well enjoy slightly improved odds of winning? but whoever goes first is also decided by a random-generated die roll at game's start. So, Fair is fair.)

<b>Play Balance</b> suggests the essential fine-tuning of a scenario <i>after</i> one's historically-researched maps and sometimes even more painstaking OOB's have been drawn up. Kudos to both you and Doug in this portion of Campaign Antietam! Objective VP's as well as the sometimes tweaking (sometimes 'cheating') of morale ratings, command ranges, etc., may more or less represent the final steps in this fine-tuning balancing process.

<b>A level playing field</b>, on the other hand, <i>begins</i> long before any scenario designer appears on the scene with his sabre and pipe in hand. It begins with a programmer's keyboard.

Because Tiller's code limits (indeed, foils) our scenario design options, establishing <i>a perfectly level playing field</i> remains impossible!

Thus the goal of the scenario designer (you, in this instance, Rich), hopefully, recognizes such hardwired limitations and so devises an OOB that at the very least meets this goal of a level playing field "half-way".

I say "half-way," Rich, because, while we've been talking about whether or not to breakdown batteries, we have never sought to have <i>all</i> our regiments similarly brokendown into their respective companies - if only to 'level the other half' - because, a hellishly impossible piece-pushing mass of doo-doo would be the unplayable result! [xx(]

So, we accepted a necessary imbalance- if only because Tiller's assymetrical regimental fire formula gave us no choice! - and, instead focused on those long unsporting, assymetrical CSA / USA <i>Talonsoft</i> BG batteries.

As Drew's team demonstrated with Campaign Corinth - breaking down all batteries on both sides <i>finally</i> leveled the playing field for all CSA/USA Ordnance! Hurrah!

It wasn't perfect. Because Perfect would mean we'd have our CSA / USA batteries ALONG with a new formula! But it <i>was</i> a perfect compromise, Rich. (Thank Drew!)

So, please, unless and/or until Tiller reconsiders some "new or improved" FIRE Integer Calculation routine (i.e., one that permits small / large / <i>all</i> units to combine #guns / SP's into selective, single integer attacks, would you possibly be open to build your <u>campaign</u> scenarios in the future around an OOB that breaks down all ordnance into their historical sections and pieces?

Does this seem a reasonable, acceptable <i>compromise?</i>

Fld. Lt. D. Shoeless, CSA
Secretary of the Cabinet (Ret)
1st Tenn Provisional Army

<center><i>From a certain point onward there is no turning back. That is the point that must be reached.</i> --F. Kafka</center>


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 6:43 am 
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Though I think the historical scenario is balanced, I have already completed and offered the new variant with all batteries reduced to sections. Just ask, and I will email it to you.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 7:43 am 
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It is hard to believe there are so many posts on this thread.

Here is a quote from "The Long Arm of Lee", by Jennings Cropper Wise;

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The actual losses of the Confederate Artillery in the (Maryland) campaign had been slight, although the batteries themselves were veritable wrecks, over half of their horses having succumbed either on the road or in battle.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

In the whole campaign, Wise lists two 12 lb howitzers, a 3" rifle, a 6-lber, and two 10 lb Parrotts lost, as well as 4 guns spiked when threatened with capture at Boteler's Ford after the battle. He estimated artillery personnel losses at about 300 men.

One thing I have noticed recently is the vulnerability of crews. In previous games such as Peninsula, it seemed very difficult to kill crews, even with a large musket-armed regiment at point blank range with flanking fire. Now I have seen crews taken out fairly regularly with 400+ men at 500 yds (4 hexes) even though the batteries were in town. Using the default fire table rather than the alternate might contribute to this, because an abnormally high casualty result would be more likely. But I have reports from a friend playing the Chickamauga module who is using the alternate table that he has noticed the same phenomenon. Has something changed?

I used to advocate real crews because you had to fire at artillery a long time to have any appreciable effect. Now I advocate it because the uncrewed result is far too likely. Neither result reflects history.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:51 pm 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rich Walker</i>
<br />Though I think the historical scenario is balanced, I have already completed and offered the new variant with all batteries reduced to sections. Just ask, and I will email it to you.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">That's okay, Rich. We are quite comfortable with having to edit any individual set-piece battle. But, what appears to be more work than any of us at this end are interested in doing is editing the campaign scenarios along with all the variants.

[edit - that which followed Rich's Tip on "moving and firing in complete stacks" is being shuttled in due course to a new thread location.]

Fld. Lt. D. Shoeless, CSA
Secretary of the Cabinet (Ret)
1st Tenn Provisional Army

<center><i>From a certain point onward there is no turning back. That is the point that must be reached.</i> --F. Kafka</center>


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