American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)

Are the HPS Campaign games actual campaigns or merely a set of linked scenarios? I have had too many instances where a battle is won or lost and a completely illogical result come about for the next scenario.

A recent experience will suffice to illustrate. Dwight McBride and I are playing the new 'Second Manassas-Antietam" campaign. In our first major battle I was completely defeated as the Confederate player. A fair and square game, I was defeated and that was that. Now for the campaign choices I made my decision and Dwight his. But when the matrix decision came up describing the scenario (which turned out to be Chantilly) it was worded in such a fashion to declare that the Confederates had won the recent victory at Manassas.

This wasn't the case at all. It would be far more likely that the next scenario would have Lee very much on the defensive and the invasion of the North not even seriously contemplated. But instead I find myself in the Chantilly scenario with a greatly weakened army and forced to attack in order to win. But the whole premise and reason for the actual battle at Chantilly no longer apply. I have some regiments that have "9" men! Some "26". Holy Cow! There is no way that a regiment down to those levels would even be considered for a new campaign, let alone to be assigned an attack position in a major battle.

I am familiar with the Battle editor but have no experience with the Campaign editor. Is it possible to re-work some of these campaigns to allow for more realistic alternatives or are they hard wired into the system. How 'open' is the Campaign editor?

I also saw an instance on the Peninsula disk of wierd campaign tree decisions. In that one the Union player actually got inside the city of Richmond when the scenario ended. I was playing the confederate. So in the next scenario I fully was prepared to get a really whopping defeat with the Union in a greatly enhanced position and my guys just barely hanging on.

What was the next scenarios set up? Much to our surprise the set up saw the Union army outside the city and even further east of the outer fortifications.

So I take it then that the Camapaigns are really nothing more than canned scenarios that carry over casualties. Am I wrong here or am I completely missing something?



Bg. General Gilbert Collins
Army of Alabama
III/I/2nd Brigade

I'll have a look when I get home, but it might have been more logical to end the Campaign in the event of a Confederate defeat.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

I just took a quick look at the Campaign Tree, if the union wins a major victory at 2nd Bull Run the campaign is over, confederates defeated. Any other result and the campaign goes to Chantilly.

Gen. Ken Miller
1/2/VI
AoS

As Ken said, a Major Conf defeat ends the campaign, therefore you must have suffered a minor defeat. This could still lead to a battle at Chantilly. I should have worded the Chantilly blurb a little differently. One that would have been more generic. But overall, it seems OK.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by krmiller</i>
<br />I just took a quick look at the Campaign Tree, if the union wins a major victory at 2nd Bull Run the campaign is over, confederates defeated. Any other result and the campaign goes to Chantilly.

Gen. Ken Miller
1/2/VI
AoS


<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

Sounds like its time for you to break out the campaign editor and create a campaign Gilbert. It can be as complex as you want it to be...and you can dump months of your life into making one. Enjoy! [:D]

LGen. Hamilton
II Corps
ANV, CSA

Thank Rich for the info. Checking back with a Union Minor victory, not a major, one does indeed end up at Chantilly. But we thought this was still a bit curious.

Lee's first invasion of the north was a big chance for the Confederacy and that was only decided upon because of the great victory at 2nd Manassas, sometimes called Lee's Austerlitz. Anything short of a big victory or any kind of Union victory I think would have altered Lee's plans considerably. But, that is a judgement call by the designer.

I do have a couple of questions about the campaign editor though that I'm hoping you can answer. I have printed out the entire campaign editor manual, and read it, but am still foggy about some things.

For my questions I'm going to use Campaign Atlanta as an example but they could equally referr to any of the HPS disks.

1.) Let's say that my first scenario is "Rocky Face Ridge". And let us further suppose that one of the results is a total Confederate Major Victory. Highly unlikely of course, given the skill of a commander like Sherman and the temperment of Johnston, but in these games WE are supposed to be in command, so it could happen.

2.) Could the next scenario composition consist of ANY scenario that I decide to make utilizing ANY map on the Atlanta disk? For example, given a major Confederate victory I wouldn't want to suppose that the Rebels would fall back to Resaca as seems to be the case in the actual Atlanta disk. Wouldn't it be more likely that the Union player might find himself in a defensive position west of Rocky Face in order to defend Ringold and the gateway to Chattanooga?

3.) Could the second scenario be a scenario I could create utilizing the Rocky Face Ridge Map with a Union set up west of the ridge.

4.) Pre-supposing a further Confederate Major victory in THAT created scenario I would have to suppose that the campaign as far as the Atlanta disk is concerned would be over am I correct? This would be because there are no maps on the disk further west than Ringold.

5.) This is really hypothetical, but could a third scenario be created utilizing a map from lets say the 'Chickamauga disk' or is this getting outside the parameters of what the software can accomodate?

6.) Again, a hypothetical example to ask a question. Let's say that in the Rocky Face Ridge scenario of the existing Atlanta disk the Confederates got a major major victory against the Union. I mean something really big, like destroying 3/4 of Sherman's army. What would the next scenario be? I believe it would be Resaca and if it is, what would the size of Sherman's army be? Would it be deployed with approximately 1/4 of its original size?

I'm just curious about the whole campaign creation process. I realize it is one heck of a lot of work to create one. I can gather that just by reading the manual. But I have noted some campaign 'tree' decisions that never allow for big decisive victories. They always seem to move to minor variants of the historical situation. The Atlanta disk is merely an example and I'm not taking a back handed strike at the designer here. I just find it a little strange that no matter what happens at Rocky Face Ridge, you end up at Resaca.

If you could answer these questions I think it would take a lot of mystery out of the campaign process and help me (us) to tackle our own campaigns.

Bg. General Gilbert Collins
Army of Alabama
III/I/2nd Brigade

I think some of the Campaigns are more "campaign" than not, and some are just a string of connected battles with little determination from the previous results along the way.

Gettysburg has lots of branches to it, as does Corinth...


General Jeff Laub
Union Chief of the Army
ACWGC Cabinet Member
http://www.geocities.com/laubster22/UnionHQ/

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by gcollins</i>
<br />2.) Could the next scenario composition consist of ANY scenario that I decide to make utilizing ANY map on the Atlanta disk? For example, given a major Confederate victory I wouldn't want to suppose that the Rebels would fall back to Resaca as seems to be the case in the actual Atlanta disk. Wouldn't it be more likely that the Union player might find himself in a defensive position west of Rocky Face in order to defend Ringold and the gateway to Chattanooga?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Yes, you could alter it to pull any scenario you wish. The campaign structure & flow is dictated completely by the designer.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
3.) Could the second scenario be a scenario I could create utilizing the Rocky Face Ridge Map with a Union set up west of the ridge.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Sure, make a copy of the CPD file and put an -alt suffix on it, then make any alterations you wish.

IE: 1 Campaign Atlanta-alt.cpd

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
4.) Pre-supposing a further Confederate Major victory in THAT created scenario I would have to suppose that the campaign as far as the Atlanta disk is concerned would be over am I correct? This would be because there are no maps on the disk further west than Ringold.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

There's a monster map that shipped with Atlanta that you could easily sub-map and create hypothetical actions with...so the only real limitation is your imagination.


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
5.) This is really hypothetical, but could a third scenario be created utilizing a map from lets say the 'Chickamauga disk' or is this getting outside the parameters of what the software can accomodate?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Maps can not be brought from one game to another, but as mentioned above there is ample map territory that isn't used for scenarios that could be pulled from. Open the scenario editor up, choose to create a new scenario and select the "03_Atlanta (full).map" file as your base map. You can create a sub-map from it by using these steps:

<b>Sub-Map Creation</b>

This feature will allow you to take any existing map from the game and create a sub-section of it for use with a new custom scenario. The process is incredibly easy. All you need to know is 4 pieces of information:

1) What original map do you want to work from?

2) What is the beginning hex you wish to work from?

3) How many hexes wide do you want the map?

4) How many hexes long do want the map?


Once you have determined this information you are ready to begin. Simply go into your main game directory and create a new text file. For our purposes here I am going to call it test.map

I have chosen to use the Atlanta map. There are only 3 lines of text you need to enter:

1) First line = 0

2) Second line = Original map name

3) The coordinates you choose to use.

0
Atlanta.map
53 12 35 40

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
6.) Again, a hypothetical example to ask a question. Let's say that in the Rocky Face Ridge scenario of the existing Atlanta disk the Confederates got a major major victory against the Union. I mean something really big, like destroying 3/4 of Sherman's army. What would the next scenario be? I believe it would be Resaca and if it is, what would the size of Sherman's army be? Would it be deployed with approximately 1/4 of its original size?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

The Army would be deployed to begin with, then losses would be carried over from the previous battle:

Note: This is done most easily by using the same OOB file for both battles. If different OOB's are used then .ORG files must be used to tell the program how to "map" the different organizations in the OOB's.

So the arrayed army would have the losses removed from it, and if the battle took place immediately afterwards then the troops could also have fatigue left from the previous action. If a period of time passed then some troops could have returned from straggling and most (if not all) fatigue would be recovered.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
I'm just curious about the whole campaign creation process. I realize it is one heck of a lot of work to create one. I can gather that just by reading the manual. But I have noted some campaign 'tree' decisions that never allow for big decisive victories. They always seem to move to minor variants of the historical situation. The Atlanta disk is merely an example and I'm not taking a back handed strike at the designer here. I just find it a little strange that no matter what happens at Rocky Face Ridge, you end up at Resaca.

If you could answer these questions I think it would take a lot of mystery out of the campaign process and help me (us) to tackle our own campaigns.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

A common complaint is that campaigns don't contain enough battles, so designers tend to try and make them last as long as possible. Even when a historical reality would dictate a campaign would end after the first battle if a certain result was achieved, and the designer faithfully reflects that, we get complaints! [:D]

The campaign engine is incredibly detailed and flexible, and I believe we still haven't exhausted its full potential with the titles that are on the market...but creating a campaign is exceptionally time consuming and with each new branch and set of decisions for each army, the number of scenarios required and potential outcomes expands exponentially. It took me several months to create the 1758 campaign for FIW, and in hind site there's a lot I could have done differently, and better. But there has to come a point where you say something is good to go and move on.

Personally, I'd love to see some custom campaigns created by the user community...I think they would be very well received.


LGen. Hamilton
II Corps
ANV, CSA

Ok, thanks Rich for the information. The scenario editor is one thing, the Campaign editor is another. I can see the learning curve on the latter is going to be a much tougher.



Bg. General Gilbert Collins
Army of Alabama
III/I/2nd Brigade