American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)

Has a Union player EVER won any of the Cedar Mountain scenarios on HPS Campaign Antietam? In my experience, the situation is inherently flawed, unbalanced and unwinnable for the Union side. I have made a point of trying to play this one against different rebel opponents and each time the result is the same...A disastrous defeat for me.

I defend: The Reb hits me and my line disintegrates.
I attack: My attack fails after 1 or 2 turns. My units rout or disrupt with no noticeable effect on the Rebel line.

I present some statistics and ask if anyone thinks this makes for a playable game?

UNION 12441.
23 Infantry Regiments ( 2 B, 8 C, 13 D quality )
4 Cavalry Regiments ( 4 C )
9 Artillery Battery's ( 48 Guns )
2 Supply Wagons ( 600 supplies )

REBEL 12995.
46 Infantry Regiments ( 10 A, 12 B, 24 C )
1 Cavalry Regiment ( 1 B )
17 Artillery Battery's/Sections ( 31 Guns )
1 Supply Wagon ( 400 supplies )

The fatal flaw of the HPS game engine is here, clear for all to see. The Rebel player can win ANY scenario through the relative balance of the Infantry forces. Rebel victory is a mathematical certainty, ANYTHING the Union player does is of no consequence whatsoever?

In my opinion, taken as a whole the scenarios are stacked in favour of the Confederacy 90% of the time...I WILL NOT PLAY GAMES I CANNOT WIN![:(!]

Lt.Col. Jim Wilkes.
2nd Brigade, Cavalry Division, XX Corps.
AoC. U.S.A.

It sounds to good to be true - a battle that I have a good shot at winning. How about it Colonel?[;)] With my poor battle record you would statistically have a good chance at winning.[:D]

Col Cam mcOmish
Lone Star Brigade
Iron Horse Division
King Cotton Corps
Army of Georgia
CSA

There are 7 Cedar Mtn scenarios. The first is HISTORICAL. If that is the scenario that you have been playing, then HISTORICAL is just that. The WHAT-IF variants are NOT historical. There are, also, 7 weather influenced Cedar Mtn scenarios.

So, a historical scenario might NOT be balanced.[;)]

You can always adapt any of the scenarios to something more to your liking.[:p]

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
General, Commanding, Army of Ohio

ACWGC Cabinet Member
ACWGC Records Site Administrator
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I haven't played it but at least on paper if your strengths are correct the scenario should be relatively balanced. The army strengths are about the same, Rebs have a morale advantage, the Union has an artillery advantage, the Rebs start off with more VP forcing the Union to be the attacker, but all the Union force is on the map on turn 1 while the Rebs dribble in.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
1/1/III AoM (CSA)

My one trip through Cedar Mountain resulted in a minor victory for the Union - not much fighting because the Yanks were deployed in a strong line on the ridge in full force before even half the Rebs were on the field - the only reason it wasn't a draw is because Union artillery fire took out a few Reb guns and caused enough long range casualties to barelys wing it into the minor victory level. I saw little reason the Yanks shouldn't be able to win. I could have attacked but would have lost many men doing so, and the scenario wasn't long enough or on a big enough map to allow for maneuvering the Yanks off the high ground.

Regards,

Lt. Gen. Alan Lynn
CSA Chief of Staff
3rd Bgde, 3rd Cav Div, II Corps, AoA

God Bless <><

Hi,

I won as the yank in a maneuver game. Spent the first half of the game attacking and the second half defending. My opponent made some mistakes. One was giving me an opportunity for flank shots. Another was getting into a firefight with him in the open and me in the woods. Another was moving small units in the woods adjacent to my large cavalry units armed with carbines (7x firepower factor.) Of course we were playing phases. Have no idea how it would have worked with single turn play.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA

I have played and won there, in a similar fashion as MG Mihalik describes.

It does take some luck to not have major routing, but if you can get the arty onto the hill, and defend well with the infantry, use Buford to keep the Reb on his toes or spread out, then you've got a shot awinning. No guarantees, that's the thing with playing the Union - routing can interrupt the best strategy or tactician![:D]

If it were easy to win as the union, we'd let Reb officers do it. Gotta give them poor boys a leg up to compete with us Blue bellies, right?![;)]


General Jeff Laub
Union Chief of the Army
ACWGC Cabinet Member
http://www.geocities.com/laubster22/UnionHQ/

Peters - Pthhhbbbbttt![:D]


General Jeff Laub
Union Chief of the Army
ACWGC Cabinet Member
http://www.geocities.com/laubster22/UnionHQ/

I'm currently playing the scenario as the first battle in a campaign game, using turn based play with the new alternate separate melee phase turned on. Based on what historically happened at Cedar Mountain, the victory conditions are incorrect. My biggest concern is that the Union is the first player and therefore has the burden of attack on his shoulders. It seems to me that strategically and therefore in this scenario, tactically as well, the burden of attacking should be on the Rebs. Historically, Banks orders from Pope were to stand on the defensive and delay Jackson as long as possible. Jackson, on the other hand had set the objective for his Corps as Culpepper Court House. Therefore, for the South to achieve their objectives they had to attack and push any Union force out of the way and then advance another 7 miles. For Banks to win for the North he only had to hold his position and deprive Jackson of his objective. Historically, the South won a tactical victory by forcing Banks, who overstepped his orders and took the tactical offensive, a way from the battlefield. But Jackson suffered a strategic defeat, as he never got close to Culpepper, and two days later his forces left the field and returned to the area they had marched from to reach Cedar Mountain. Based on this the South should be the first player in the scenario and should have the burden of achieving victory or suffering defeat.

Should the North have a tough fight on their hands here? Well given the fact that Jackson outnumbered Banks by 20,000 to 8,800, yeah.

For a good description of this battle I recommend "From Cedar Mountain to Antietam" by Edward J. Stackpole, originally published in 1959.

Brig. Gen. Bill Spitz
3rd Division
I Corps
Army of the Potomac
[image]http://tmg110.tripod.com/federal/us-1c3d.gif[/image]

While there were 20,000 Rebels versus 12,000 Union, the battle was badly managed by Jackson. The scenario only gives the Rebels the troops that Jackson managed to get into the fight rather than what was available since it would have really been a cake walk if the CSA player is given all 20,000. I don't know the reason the designer chose the victory conditions they did. Although I suspect based on the way the CSA army arrives it was the only way to make it a balanced fight.

For a nice overview of the battle:
http://www.acwgc.org/CSAWC/Shared/Battlefields_Main.cfm


LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
1/1/III AoM (CSA)

Well, who would have thought it possible? I've taken on board some of the advice thrown at me recently (thanks to everyone) and have managed to take a minor victory in a weather variant of this battle.

The weather was a major factor in the way the scenario played out, it started raining just as my own attack faltered and so the Rebs struggled to pursue me through the boggy ground and poor visibility. Strike a blow for the Union!

Lt.Col. Jim Wilkes.
2nd Brigade, Cavalry Division, XX Corps.
AoC. U.S.A.