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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:04 am 
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Posts: 111
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by shoeless</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Phil Driscoll</i>
<br />I'm sorry but I don't usually do this but I find this 'analysis' a bunch of the usual Confederate hogwash.[;)]

First of all, please before you start screaming bloody murder for the 'poor' Confederates and how mistreated they are, get your facts straight at least.[:p] If you take the standard BR scenario and view command range and select either Rebel 'Army Commander' their command range is 28 as is the other Army commander-Mcdowell. The Division Commanders for the Union are all Ds on command and D/C on LDRShip so I wonder how many times Union troops are going to earn that bonus ..<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">A challenging mess, to say the least, brigadier. [xx(]

--But, <i>if</i> you <i>had played</i> - instead of having merely pretended to imagine the actual nuts and bolts nature of the 1st Manassas scenarios first hand - (Scenario 003 was our original selection), your boys might have gleaned (learned) that BG McDowell's command relationship to his own Division Commanders was set by the scenario designer to be that of a simple <i>Corps Commander</i>. I say you might have? [?][:0][?]

Now, take note of your parameter data for a Corps Commander? "12 hexes". Thus Brigadier General Irvin McDowell serves in the capacity of Corps Commander - <u>not</u> Army Commander as you were rash to lay claim, with some otherwise mythical 28 hex non-starter bit of pure fantasy - while Johnston and Beauregard equally serve in the rather modest capacity of two Division Commanders.

As an aspiring brigadier, your troops doubtless would be better served by having them better aligned and fit for active duty with the requisite facts at hand.<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The Confederates have equal or better leaders at army (2 LDRs) level and brigade.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">"Brigadier is once more talkin' out of his butt!" ...suh... <salute>

It obviously bears repeating, both BG Johnston and BG Beauregard were assigned to function as Division Level Commanders. Check your parameter data to observe that the Division Command Range radius is butt 6 hexes. So it is for Beauregard and Johnston. 6 hexes each. end of story. please, no more butts.<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">As far as no Confederate Division commanders, I guess that's just the way it was.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">"Guess?" <i>All</i> rebel brigadiers, including Jackson and Longstreet, know all too well that there are <u>no</u> CSA Division commanders, who ever assumed command at First Manassas . . . oh, other than - I almost forgot - Beauregard and Johnston, according to the scenario design in play.<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">JMHO and I apologise if I have offended.[:I] one old damnyankee [8D]<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Fair Enough. It couldn't hurt, however, to pull out a textbook on the subject now and then, brigadier. [?] (but, no offense taken. now carry on and let's be more dutiful with the sometimes limited facts at our disposal).

Fld. Lt. D. Shoeless, CSA
Secretary of the Cabinet (Ret)
1st Tenn Provisional Army

<center><i>From a certain point onward there is no turning back. That is the point that must be reached.</i> --F. Kafka</center>
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Actually you did not specify until now which Manassas scenario you used. I looked at the historical one and 'played' the scenario. When I clicked on either Johnson or Beauregard (and McDowell) with View command range on it displayed a range of 28 hexes-which is "Army" not "Corps" or "Divisional" iaw the PDT. I guess neither of us 'checked' all the Manassas scenarios.

Brig. Gen. Phil Driscoll
1st Brigade/1st Division/VCorps/AoP


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:17 am 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Phil Driscoll</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by shoeless</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Phil Driscoll</i>
<br />I'm sorry but I don't usually do this but I find this 'analysis' a bunch of the usual Confederate hogwash.[;)]

First of all, please before you start screaming bloody murder for the 'poor' Confederates and how mistreated they are, get your facts straight at least.[:p] If you take the standard BR scenario and view command range and select either Rebel 'Army Commander' their command range is 28 as is the other Army commander-Mcdowell. The Division Commanders for the Union are all Ds on command and D/C on LDRShip so I wonder how many times Union troops are going to earn that bonus ..<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">A challenging mess, to say the least, brigadier. [xx(]

--But, <i>if</i> you <i>had played</i> - instead of having merely pretended to imagine the actual nuts and bolts nature of the 1st Manassas scenarios first hand - (Scenario 003 was our original selection), your boys might have gleaned (learned) that BG McDowell's command relationship to his own Division Commanders was set by the scenario designer to be that of a simple <i>Corps Commander</i>. I say you might have? [?][:0][?]

Now, take note of your parameter data for a Corps Commander? "12 hexes". Thus Brigadier General Irvin McDowell serves in the capacity of Corps Commander - <u>not</u> Army Commander as you were rash to lay claim, with some otherwise mythical 28 hex non-starter bit of pure fantasy - while Johnston and Beauregard equally serve in the rather modest capacity of two Division Commanders.

As an aspiring brigadier, your troops doubtless would be better served by having them better aligned and fit for active duty with the requisite facts at hand.<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The Confederates have equal or better leaders at army (2 LDRs) level and brigade.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">"Brigadier is once more talkin' out of his butt!" ...suh... <salute>

It obviously bears repeating, both BG Johnston and BG Beauregard were assigned to function as Division Level Commanders. Check your parameter data to observe that the Division Command Range radius is butt 6 hexes. So it is for Beauregard and Johnston. 6 hexes each. end of story. please, no more butts.<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">As far as no Confederate Division commanders, I guess that's just the way it was.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">"Guess?" <i>All</i> rebel brigadiers, including Jackson and Longstreet, know all too well that there are <u>no</u> CSA Division commanders, who ever assumed command at First Manassas . . . oh, other than - I almost forgot - Beauregard and Johnston, according to the scenario design in play.<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">JMHO and I apologise if I have offended.[:I] one old damnyankee [8D]<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Fair Enough. It couldn't hurt, however, to pull out a textbook on the subject now and then, brigadier. [?] (but, no offense taken. now carry on and let's be more dutiful with the sometimes limited facts at our disposal).

Fld. Lt. D. Shoeless, CSA
Secretary of the Cabinet (Ret)
1st Tenn Provisional Army

<center><i>From a certain point onward there is no turning back. That is the point that must be reached.</i> --F. Kafka</center>
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Actually you did not specify until now which Manassas scenario you used. I looked at the historical one and 'played' the scenario. When I clicked on either Johnson or Beauregard (and McDowell) with View command range on it displayed a range of 28 hexes-which is "Army" not "Corps" or "Divisional" iaw the PDT. I guess neither of us 'checked' all the Manassas scenarios and there appears to be variations in the OOB/PDT? between different BR scenarios.[:p]Can't check it as I am at work right now.

Brig. Gen. Phil Driscoll
1st Brigade/1st Division/VCorps/AoP
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Brig. Gen. Phil Driscoll
1st Brigade/1st Division/VCorps/AoP


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:26 pm 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Phil Driscoll</i>

Actually you did not specify until now which Manassas scenario you used. I looked at the historical one and 'played' the scenario. When I clicked on either Johnson or Beauregard (and McDowell) with View command range on it displayed a range of 28 hexes-which is "Army" not "Corps" or "Divisional" iaw the PDT. I guess neither of us 'checked' all the Manassas scenarios and there appears to be variations in the OOB/PDT? between different BR scenarios.[:p]Can't check it as I am at work right now.

Brig. Gen. Phil Driscoll
1st Brigade/1st Division/VCorps/AoP
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Brigadier, it matters not which 1st Manassas scenario you pick. (I playtested #002, #003 and #103 - we are currently engaged here at the bivouac with #102 - historical - but no fixed units, sectional arty, w/weather.)

So, here's what you need to know. (Trust me, dammit! I'm trying to help you, Phil. [:)])

The default "28 hex" Army Command radius shown via the "command range" toggle from the View Menu display - unfortunately - has nothing whatsoever to do with anyone's <i>real</i> command range on the 1st Manassas battlefield other than possibly the crows and flies that flitter overhead. Scroll down to discover the reasons why. [:I]

---Please, go back to re-examine all your USA Division leaders and CSA brigade officers just to see for yourself which of them are "detached". (You will find the "detached" text indicator at the bottom of any unit icon.)

Note, for example, how Stonewall Jackson begins play as a "detached" brigade officer? That's because he is actually "standing like the 'fixed' unit he surely is" some <i>8 hexes</i> distant from either Beauregard or Johnston!

Remember, Beauregard's and Johnston's Command Ranges have been preset to function as modest Division Leaders, both claiming a 6-hex Command Range.

---Now, as for the US player, step through a single Union movement turn, being sure to <i>move</i> Division leader BG Tyler some 13 hexes distant from McDowell's location in Centreville. Don't move McDowell for purpose of this lil experiment.[:X] Then step through to the next turn and notice how BG Tyler is now suddenly a "detached" unit, too? Proving without a shadow of a doubt or some sorry ass hastily written follow-up rejoinder post [8)] that BG McDowell's command range fails to exert itself beyond his own pre-scripted 12 hex limit - Pretty amazing stuff, eh? [|)]

As for the Command Range 'View' toggle, indicating "28 hexes," it's an outright blaspheme that our intrepid Tiller-Think-Tank-Central Command of crack sharpshooters clearly <i>forgot</i> to toggle back the "Command Range" view finder feature for BG McDowell, BG Beauregard, and BG Johnston <i>if only</i> to match their actual game play ranges of 12, 6, and 6 ... hexes, that is.

Fld. Lt. D. Shoeless, CSA
Secretary of the Cabinet (Ret)
1st Tenn Provisional Army





<center><i>From a certain point onward there is no turning back. That is the point that must be reached.</i> --F. Kafka</center>


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:08 pm 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by zinkyusa</i>
<br />Can a couple of Reb leaders (Jackson comes to mind) in BR be set to pass on command modifiers as a diviion commander would to certain parts of the Reb army in the interest of play balance?

Lt. Gen. Ed Blackburn
I/I/VI/AoS
Image
"Forward Bucktails"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">I favor an OOB or hardwired solution.

At present, we at http://www.shoelessbivouac.net/acwhrules.html have opted out of <i>all</i> Division leaders on the map - i.e., we removed them from play.

However, so long as they could be historically managed - i.e., limited in command scope and usefulness, I would favor maintaining their <i>historical</i> presence.

Here's what I would like to try, assuming software <i>permissions</i> allowed:

<ol type="1"><li>Roll back all inflated Union Brigade and Division Leader Command Range radii back to original 2 hex / 4 hex ranges. (Civil War historians have written volumes as to the how and why of generally superior Southern leadership skills over slower to catch up counterparts so <i>early</i> - and only so early - in the war; but let's leave that for, perhaps, <i>Command and Control Issues at 1st Manassas -- Vol. 3</i>. Thanks. [8)])</li>

<li>Reset "Overall Field Commander" Command Range (CR) Radii</li>

<ol type="a"><li>Assign Johnston - as the eventual CSA Army Commander - a 12-15 hex CR (28 hexes is simply too absurd an a-historical figure to qualify, imo.)</li><li>Assign Beauregard 'superior' Division status with an 8-10 hex CR.</li><li>Assign McDowell as the tactically modest "Army Commander" he proved to be with a 10-12 hex CR.</li></ol id="a">

And, perhaps, as a fitting and final solution:

<li>Temporarily <i>disable</i> Tiller's hardwired Division "in command" morale-check bonus - Division leaders may still be permitted to add their morale-check and melee bonus within a hex. But, not a whit more.

This is only because of their generally dismal (ill-prepared and inexperienced) performance at 1st Manassas. The kind of under-performance, gentlemen, which should/would automatically disqualify any from passing down Tiller's, let alone another's, "in command" morale-check bonus to <u>one</u> whole brigade officer, let alone 2! 3! or 4! It just never happened that way.</li></ol id="1">

(For USA players who feel they're somehow getting shafted, remember, you still have 4 viable Division leaders, capable of demonstrating some favorable impact on the battle, whereas the CSA player has none. And the Union player enjoys a more compact army, whereas the Confederates are spread thin all along the run - giving the Union commander the sole initiative to decide when, where, and how to best catch isolated Confederate forces, destroying them piecemeal before they, perhaps, have a chance to gather their army. This battle, alone, deserves repeat visits, imo. ==Denny)

Fld. Lt. D. Shoeless, CSA
Secretary of the Cabinet (Ret)
1st Tenn Provisional Army


<center><i>From a certain point onward there is no turning back. That is the point that must be reached.</i> --F. Kafka</center>


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:51 am 
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Posts: 111
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Roll back all inflated Union Brigade and Division Leader Command Range radii back to original 2 hex / 4 hex ranges. (Civil War historians have written volumes as to the how and why of generally superior Southern leadership skills over slower to catch up counterparts so early - and only so early - in the war; but let's leave that for, perhaps, Command and Control Issues at 1st Manassas -- Vol. 3. Thanks. )<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Those would be 'Southern Civil War Historians' I assume?[:p] But that aside, the Command Range has less to do with "leadership" (especially since each leader receives a separate letter 'grade' for that) than it does with the physical limits of command range(or span if you like) and the doctrine of the time. Division, Corps, and Army HQ usually had 'proportionally larger staffs' which allowed them to command more units over a greater area (and suffered when they didn't).

Brig. Gen. Phil Driscoll
1st Brigade/1st Division/VCorps/AoP


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 12:12 pm 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Phil Driscoll</i>
[br Those would be 'Southern Civil War Historians' I assume?[:p] But that aside, the Command Range has less to do with "leadership" (especially since each leader receives a separate letter 'grade' for that) than it does with the physical limits of command range(or span if you like) and the doctrine of the time. Division, Corps, and Army HQ usually had 'proportionally larger staffs' which allowed them to command more units over a greater area (and suffered when they didn't).

Brig. Gen. Phil Driscoll
1st Brigade/1st Division/VCorps/AoP
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I think most command ranges were set more to reflect the difference in command structure between the CSA and USA armies than the actual ability to control units. 1862 is a little difficult because of the strange mix of command structures expecially in the CSA armies.

But in 1863 the higher CSA command ranges is not because the officers were any better (if this was the reason command range would be based off the officer's Leadership rating) but because CSA brigades, divisions and Corps all tended to have more units in them. CSA divisions tended to be much larger than Union and were more closely equal to a Union Corps. If you compare say the armies at Gettysburg at the organizational level that controls equivalent numbers of men the Union command in spite of the lower Brigade and Divisional ranges it superior to the Rebel.

The ANV fields nine divisions. Since the divisional command range is six this gives a divisional frontage of only 12 hexes with everyone under control. For that frontage you have only one officer (the divisional commander) available for rallying (you share three more between the nine divisions or nominal half a leader).

The Union fields seven Corps. Most are larger than the equivalent CSA division. A Union Corps can control a frontage of 23 hexes with all regiments in command. They have 3 to 4 leaders per Corps plus one shared leader (army commander) that can rally units.

When you look at the brigade level yes it looks like the CSA has an advantage but the opposite is the case. The Union Army can field a frontage of 161 hexes compared to the CSA's 108 with all regiments in command. About 1.5 times the frontage. The USA can field 27 officers that can rally routes compared to the CSA's 10, three times the number.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
1/1/III AoM (CSA)


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