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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 12:06 pm 
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Hi, Bill,

Most of this has been discussed ad infinitum. You get full points if you capture the guns AND occupy them at the end of the scenario. Ditto spiked guns, only you get half points. The advantage of spiking guns is that you deny their use to your opponent during the scenario. In a campaign, captured guns revert to the original owner in the next scenario. Hopefully some day the discrepancies will be corrected. Until then, IMHO, it is still a vast improvement over the guns simply disappearing when captured. And that is the beauty of this system. If you don't like the option, you don't have to use it. But I will.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:48 pm 
I do see Bill's point. Nix the Spike Rule.

Alas, why yanks or rebs must be obliged to physically occupy the captured gun hex at and/or until game's end seems really silly.

It would be simpler - hence, a better abstraction design - to simply have the guns REMOVED after they remain captured for two (2) consecutive turns. If this is interrupted in any way by a counter-attack, or the occupying unit(s) leave the gun hex for any reason, then the guns shall remain in play.

But, at the end of the second captured-gun turn - 40 simulated minutes should prove sufficient to prove <i>ownership</i> - might we, please, order the boys to "get those damn guns off the damn field!" Afterwards, they can be properly transported back to Richmond to be melted down and used to build new, top-secret, CSA prototype V-2 Guided-Dirgibles! [^]

Fld. Lt. D. Shoeless, CSA
Secretary of the Cabinet (Ret)
1st Tenn Provisional Army


<center><i>From a certain point onward there is no turning back. That is the point that must be reached.</i> --F. Kafka</center>


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:17 am 
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The Optional Capture rules have a number of problems that need to be addressed by HPS to make them workable rules. Right now they should not be used in Campaign games for sure. Some scenarios probably won't work very well with them either.

My suggestion is that when a crew is killed by infantry fire or captured by overrun the victor should receive some base VP. If a gun is overrun it's status should immediate change to the capturing player and stay that way until retaken by the original owning player. If the guns are spiked this should give the attacking player an immediate VP allocation. This would provide some incremental VP gains to the capturing player that would correspond to how they took the guns and whether they could hold on to them. VP for killing crew by capture or fire, VP for spiking guns but not preventing them from being retaken, VP for preventing them from being retaken, and VP for holding on to them unspiked. The sum of all these would equal the old methods full value for taking a gun.

If the guns are spiked or captured and not retaken, the guns should be treated the same as lost by fire. While this is not historically accurate it keeps the player from having to do stupid things like bring up guns and try to shot them out of existence. Better yet would be to add a rule that would work like entrenching. You could stack a unit with the guns and flag it as trying to permanently destroy the guns. Then based on size of unit and die roll each turn there would be a chance of permanently destroying the gun and removing it from the map.

This would address the following problems created by the overrun rule:

*Guns returning full strength in next scenario of a campaign game.
*Aggressive use of guns by side who knows they will "own" the battlefield at the end of the scenario.
*Having to waste troops occupying captured guns.
*Having enemy officers come to life behind your lines on unoccupied guns. Particularly a problem now that artillery has assigned officers.
*Captured guns blocking roads.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
1/1/III AoM (CSA)


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:42 pm 
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<font color="beige"><b>The artillery capture rules fixed several problems with the original rules but it also opened up a bag of new ones.
A problem I see with the artillery capture rules is the ability of the captured guns to now change facing or fire with out having to be crewed, one only needs to keep a unit with the guns.....a 6 gun battery can potentially be manned and fired by a one man unit!!
While recaptured guns are useless until re-crewed. I agree with Kennon's idea that the captured guns status should change to the capturing player which would cause that player to have re-crew the guns in order to use them. Ideally the guns would still need to be immobile for the remaainder of the scenario to reflect the loss of horses during the overrun. </b></font id="beige">

<center> <font color="beige"><b>Maj.Gen. R.A.Weir </b></font id="beige">
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:19 am 
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Wouldn't it make sense if the captured guns just switched sides like captured supply wagons, but without a 50% reduction in strength.

The guns could then move by prolong only. Alternatively, there might be say 50% chance of the horses also being captured and thus allowing the guns to limber up and move off normally. (It would probably be too complex to have the horses actually represented and thus capable of moving independently when the guns were unlimbered - but this would be more realistic and might result in a player's own guns losing mobility or a pool of horses kept safely in reserve for moving guns when required. Similarly the horses of dismounted cavalry might be represented, but I doubt most players would want to handle this)

The captured guns would be worth double VP to the new owner, ie. a VP gain to the new owner and also VP loss to the player who'd lost them (unless spiked, in which case they should just be worth 1/2 VPs).

There'd be no need to "garrison" the captured guns and, with the guns changing side, it would be much clearer if they became grey instead of remaining blue.

In campaign games, the captured guns should be carried over as belonging to whichever side controlled them at the end of the previous battle.

Brig. Gen. Rich White
3rd Brig. III Corps
Phantom Cav. Div.
ANV


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:13 am 
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Hi, Bill,

Your recommendations have merit, and some have been discussed before, particularly the recommendation that the guns belong to the last side that occupied them. Unfortunately, a lot of times posting on this forum is like banging your head against a stone wall. Fortunately, Rich Walker will let a little light through every now and then. But JT is the final arbiter, and none of the options I have pushed for has emerged in the form I envisioned; not the artillery capture rule, or the cavalry skirmish rule, or the increased disrupted movement rule, or the embedded melee rule. Well, maybe the artillery ammo expenditure by tube rule turned out as I had hoped. But I think each of the above-mentioned rules, while not perfect, is an improvement to the game. My latest crusade, which has languished for a couple months now, was for some sort of artillery crew so that fire over time would degrade the artillery's effectiveness. Awhile back, Rich proposed having this reflected by crew fatigue, which in a sense is the way it is now. The improvement would be that fatigue would begin to affect the guns at much lower levels than medium, high and max fatigue. Certainly not perfect, but better than what we have now, I think.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 8:14 am 
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Bill's points are valid. Spiked artillery rules as programmed are really bad. They do not make sense as many have pointed out.

Speked guns should perhaps have less VP value (75%) and that is all. The owner losses them but the winner cannot use them.

I can't beleive the rule that once captured you can use them to fire against the owners without recrewing. Seems a little too influenced by Hollywood for me.

Best Regards,

General Pierre D.
1st Bde, 3rd Div,I Corps
Army of Georgia, CSA


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:02 am 
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I also don't like that spiked guns continue to "see" for their past owners...

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:50 am 
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This has been fixed, but I'm not sure which version has the fix. Have you experienced this problem with Antietam?

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by laubster22</i>
<br />I also don't like that spiked guns continue to "see" for their past owners...

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<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:51 am 
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I'm working with JT on some other changes, so be patient.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:54 am 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I can't beleive the rule that once captured you can use them to fire against the owners without recrewing. Seems a little too influenced by Hollywood for me.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Hi, General,

There are numerous recorded instances of guns being turned on their former owners immediately upon capture, but you are right in the fact that there probably ought to be some penalty to the capturing unit in terms of decreased smallarms fire. Also, I imagine ammunition would be limited, so it ought to be treated as isolated artillery, subject to running out of ammo. Finally, under the current engine, I would support treating recaptured artillery as captured artillery, so that it had the same benefit of firing without formally recrewing. But I look forward to the day when the guns will have crews. Maybe on my deathbed.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA


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