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 Post subject: Retire by Prolonge (RBP)
PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:40 am 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Select Artillery Retire By Prolonge to allow unlimbered artillery to move one hex to the rear when the movement is between Clear hexes and does not move the unit to a higher elevation.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">My apology to the resident Committee on Redundancy - just in case this has already been properly addressed - but, <i>how</i> in tarnation does one "select" RBP so as to make it work? [:)] Thanks, ahead of the fact.

Fld. Lt. D. Shoeless, CSA
Secretary of the Cabinet (Ret)
1st Tenn Provisional Army

<center><i>From a certain point onward there is no turning back. That is the point that must be reached.</i> --F. Kafka</center>


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:00 am 
Choose it in the optional rules.

Lt Gen Bill Braddock, 1/3/III ANV


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:17 am 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by wjbraddock</i>
<br />Choose it in the optional rules.

Lt Gen Bill Braddock, 1/3/III ANV

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Yes. We already did that (doh!)

So, now what? (that's the point. we just aren't seeing how you "select" the actual gun, during play, to "RBP".) Sorry, if this seems like a no-brainer. So, thank you for a bit more patience and just show - for the benefit of all - how this is executed during actual game play. Thanks. ==Denny

<center><i>From a certain point onward there is no turning back. That is the point that must be reached.</i> --F. Kafka</center>


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:01 pm 
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<b>Artillery Retire By Prolonge</b>

<i>Under the Artillery Retire By Prolonge Optional Rule, it is possible to move unlimbered artillery one hex to the rear. The artillery unit must not be Disrupted, however it automatically becomes Disrupted as a result of the movement. The hex being moved from and the hex being moved into must both be Clear and the hex being moved into must not be a higher elevation than the hex being moved from. After movement by Prolonge, it is possible for the artillery unit to fire. </i>

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:29 pm 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
<br />You move the artillery unit while unlimbered one hex back. It can only move to its VERY most rear hex and not into one of the right or left side rear hexes.

I just tried it out in Blackburn's Ford. It works and the battery was disrupted after the move.

Col. Bill Peters, The Boise Rifles, II Corps Artillery, AoA
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Bill is right (good work, thanks). For those, like me, who have never successfully executed a retire by prolonge yet, when the rules say "clear" as in <i>clear </i>hex, it means CLEAR hex [:)] ... i.e., not "field" hex, or any other terrain hex on the map.

Furthermore, and this should come as a shocker to at least one - me - that if we fire a gun, it is instantly disqualified from executing the retire by prolonge - this, despite the obvious benefit of a gun's recoil, which already begins the 'retire' process.

Why would ANYONE think to employ this option!? Because, THE ONLY REASON one would think to use an RBP routine is <i>if</i> one wished to fire his guns before executing a one-hex pull back. And, because, in clear terrain, a gun shall ALWAYS have sufficient MP's to limber its guns, move one hex to the rear, unlimber the guns, and then execute an about face! ...and all this WITHOUT suffering the added humiliation of "disruption!"[:(]

So, tell me, who is actually putting this rule to good effect in play? And, if anyone should come forward, in precisely what situation(s) do YOU see such a routine to work to any good effect? ==Denny

Fld. Lt. D. Shoeless, CSA
Secretary of the Cabinet (Ret)
1st Tenn Provisional Army

<center><i>From a certain point onward there is no turning back. That is the point that must be reached.</i> --F. Kafka</center>


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:46 pm 
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I have used it to good uneffect[:D] That is forgetting that the unlimbered gun next to a road is of the same battery and passing by with an automove on one of the other battery's limbered guns. Instant disruption and gun sitting in the middle of the road.[xx(]

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
1/1/III AoM (CSA)


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 4:23 pm 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by KWhitehead</i>
<br />I have used it to good uneffect[:D] That is forgetting that the unlimbered gun next to a road is of the same battery and passing by with an automove on one of the other battery's limbered guns. Instant disruption and gun sitting in the middle of the road.[xx(]

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
1/1/III AoM (CSA)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">lol ...we rest our cais[son].[:)]

Fld. Lt. D. Shoeless, CSA
Secretary of the Cabinet (Ret)
1st Tenn Provisional Army

<center><i>From a certain point onward there is no turning back. That is the point that must be reached.</i> --F. Kafka</center>


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 2:39 am 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by shoeless
Bill is right (good work, thanks). For those, like me, who have never successfully executed a retire by prolonge yet, when the rules say "clear" as in <i>clear </i>hex, it means CLEAR hex [:)] ... i.e., not "field" hex, or any other terrain hex on the map.

Furthermore, and this should come as a shocker to at least one - me - that if we fire a gun, it is instantly disqualified from executing the retire by prolonge - this, despite the obvious benefit of a gun's recoil, which already begins the 'retire' process.

Why would ANYONE think to employ this option!? Because, THE ONLY REASON one would think to use an RBP routine is <i>if</i> one wished to fire his guns before executing a one-hex pull back. And, because, in clear terrain, a gun shall ALWAYS have sufficient MP's to limber its guns, move one hex to the rear, unlimber the guns, and then execute an about face! ...and all this WITHOUT suffering the added humiliation of "disruption!"[:(]

So, tell me, who is actually putting this rule to good effect in play? And, if anyone should come forward, in precisely what situation(s) do YOU see such a routine to work to any good effect? ==Denny</i><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Hi, Shoeless,

The reason you would employ retire by prolongue in the game is twofold;

1) You can move AND fire, something you can't do if you limber up and move one hex to the rear and unlimber.

2) (single turn play only) It makes you less likely to lose your crew to opportunity fire.

Personally, I think the rule is more restrictive than it needs to be, but it is better than no rule at all, imho.

Historically, I can recall only one instance in the Civil War when this tactic was used, by Bigelow's 9th Mass Bty at Gettysburg. Here is how Pfanz describes it in his book "Gettysburg: The Second Day":

<i> Bigelow's Ninth Massachuseets Battery ws the last to leave its position on the Wheatfield Road line. By the time McGilvery had dismissed it with a "limber up and get out", the men of the 21st Mississippi, and perhaps some of Kershaw's men, were passing east from the Peach Orchard against the battery and the last Federal formations in the Wheatfield. Kershaw's men, probably from the 2nd South Carolina, assailed Bigelow's Battery from the front and left; Alexander's guns had opened on it from the Emmitsburg Road; and the 21st Mississippi swept toward it from the Peach Orchard. McGilvery's terse order came almost too late.
Bigelow feared that if his guns stopped firing to limber up, the Confederate infantry would be on them like a pack of wolves, shoot the drivers and capture the immobile guns. To prevent this Bigelow ordered the guns to retire by prolongue. He wrote that the guns' recoil propelled their withdrawal and that the prolongues were used to steer them in the proper direction. And yet the limbers had to be there to supply them with ammunition and to move the guns between shots. </i>

I could see a situation in a game where it could be advantageous to retire by prolongue, and in fact recently experienced a situation where I probably should have used it but just didn't think of it at the time.

I'm not sure why you can only move directly back, why only clear terrain and not fields, and why it gets disrupted, but as I stated earlier, it is better than no RBP capability at all. At least from a historical standpoint.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 9:15 am 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Hi, Shoeless,

The reason you would employ retire by prolongue in the game is twofold;

1) You can move AND fire, something you can't do if you limber up and move one hex to the rear and unlimber.

2) (single turn play only) It makes you less likely to lose your crew to opportunity fire.

Personally, I think the rule is more restrictive than it needs to be, but it is better than no rule at all, imho.

Historically, I can recall only one instance in the Civil War when this tactic was used, by Bigelow's 9th Mass Bty at Gettysburg. Here is how Pfanz describes it in his book "Gettysburg: The Second Day":

<i> Bigelow's Ninth Massachuseets Battery ws the last to leave its position on the Wheatfield Road line. By the time McGilvery had dismissed it with a "limber up and get out", the men of the 21st Mississippi, and perhaps some of Kershaw's men, were passing east from the Peach Orchard against the battery and the last Federal formations in the Wheatfield. Kershaw's men, probably from the 2nd South Carolina, assailed Bigelow's Battery from the front and left; Alexander's guns had opened on it from the Emmitsburg Road; and the 21st Mississippi swept toward it from the Peach Orchard. McGilvery's terse order came almost too late.
Bigelow feared that if his guns stopped firing to limber up, the Confederate infantry would be on them like a pack of wolves, shoot the drivers and capture the immobile guns. To prevent this Bigelow ordered the guns to retire by prolongue. He wrote that the guns' recoil propelled their withdrawal and that the prolongues were used to steer them in the proper direction. And yet the limbers had to be there to supply them with ammunition and to move the guns between shots. </i>

I could see a situation in a game where it could be advantageous to retire by prolongue, and in fact recently experienced a situation where I probably should have used it but just didn't think of it at the time.

I'm not sure why you can only move directly back, why only clear terrain and not fields, and why it gets disrupted, but as I stated earlier, it is better than no RBP capability at all. At least from a historical standpoint.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">Mike, You are right. Good historical anecdote making the point.

(I confess that until hearing and reading your post this morning, I had always thought to "Fire <i>first</i> and Retire-by-Prolonge <i>second</i>!" [8)] This, of course, doesn't work - I can attest. [:I])

So, here's how the manual might read (in shorthand):

1. "MOVE FIRST (Retire by prolonge)"
2. "DISRUPTION (Served U Right!)"
3. "FIRE-at-Will" (At Half-Strength, because Disrupted)
4. "Good Luck ... getting Un-disrupted!"

So, yes, I agree that it's better than nothing, but not by much, because too restrictive just as you rightly observe. [V]

Incidentally, in all the boardgames we've played, the gun is required to fire (recoil) first - to remain eligible to "retire". But, fires at half-strength. Of course, this act never results in disruption. Indeed, the very act of having the gun move <i>should</i> prove a sufficient penalty, if only its gun's fire strength is reduced - by half. The program no doubt imposes (forces) its inherent limitations on what the routine can do - without a major fix; but, again, the disruption penalty is too severe a penalty to impose, imo. ==Denny

Fld. Lt. D. Shoeless, CSA
Secretary of the Cabinet (Ret)
1st Tenn Provisional Army

<center><i>From a certain point onward there is no turning back. That is the point that must be reached.</i> --F. Kafka</center>


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:09 am 
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In my current Atlanta campaign I prolonged an unlimbered arty one hex back from a wooded hex to a clear hex both hexes at the same elevation. I am offering this only to illustate that the prolonge to the rear to a clear hex seems to mean that only the hex MOVED to must be clear. I orginally thought that what was meant was that both the occupied hex AND the hex moved to had to be clear...i.e. clear to clear. That is not the case, at least in my experience.

In answer to why one would want to do this? I was in a situation where my unlimber arty was threatened by capture from an adjacent enemy, who happily chose NOT to melee my hex which contained both arty and infantry. Therefore I had the opportunity to skeedaddle on my movement turn. HOWEVER, we are playing the historical WITH weather rules and I was quite sure that if I tried to limber and then move back that I would have accomplished ONLY limbering and not have enough movement points remaining...IN THE RAIN at the time...to not move even one hex backwards. I was actually amazed that I could do the prolonge from the woods to the rear clear...in the rain.

For what it is worth.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mihalik</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by shoeless
Bill is right (good work, thanks). For those, like me, who have never successfully executed a retire by prolonge yet, when the rules say "clear" as in <i>clear </i>hex, it means CLEAR hex [:)] ... i.e., not "field" hex, or any other terrain hex on the map.

Furthermore, and this should come as a shocker to at least one - me - that if we fire a gun, it is instantly disqualified from executing the retire by prolonge - this, despite the obvious benefit of a gun's recoil, which already begins the 'retire' process.

Why would ANYONE think to employ this option!? Because, THE ONLY REASON one would think to use an RBP routine is <i>if</i> one wished to fire his guns before executing a one-hex pull back. And, because, in clear terrain, a gun shall ALWAYS have sufficient MP's to limber its guns, move one hex to the rear, unlimber the guns, and then execute an about face! ...and all this WITHOUT suffering the added humiliation of "disruption!"[:(]

So, tell me, who is actually putting this rule to good effect in play? And, if anyone should come forward, in precisely what situation(s) do YOU see such a routine to work to any good effect? ==Denny</i><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Hi, Shoeless,

The reason you would employ retire by prolongue in the game is twofold;

1) You can move AND fire, something you can't do if you limber up and move one hex to the rear and unlimber.

2) (single turn play only) It makes you less likely to lose your crew to opportunity fire.

Personally, I think the rule is more restrictive than it needs to be, but it is better than no rule at all, imho.

Historically, I can recall only one instance in the Civil War when this tactic was used, by Bigelow's 9th Mass Bty at Gettysburg. Here is how Pfanz describes it in his book "Gettysburg: The Second Day":

<i> Bigelow's Ninth Massachuseets Battery ws the last to leave its position on the Wheatfield Road line. By the time McGilvery had dismissed it with a "limber up and get out", the men of the 21st Mississippi, and perhaps some of Kershaw's men, were passing east from the Peach Orchard against the battery and the last Federal formations in the Wheatfield. Kershaw's men, probably from the 2nd South Carolina, assailed Bigelow's Battery from the front and left; Alexander's guns had opened on it from the Emmitsburg Road; and the 21st Mississippi swept toward it from the Peach Orchard. McGilvery's terse order came almost too late.
Bigelow feared that if his guns stopped firing to limber up, the Confederate infantry would be on them like a pack of wolves, shoot the drivers and capture the immobile guns. To prevent this Bigelow ordered the guns to retire by prolongue. He wrote that the guns' recoil propelled their withdrawal and that the prolongues were used to steer them in the proper direction. And yet the limbers had to be there to supply them with ammunition and to move the guns between shots. </i>

I could see a situation in a game where it could be advantageous to retire by prolongue, and in fact recently experienced a situation where I probably should have used it but just didn't think of it at the time.

I'm not sure why you can only move directly back, why only clear terrain and not fields, and why it gets disrupted, but as I stated earlier, it is better than no RBP capability at all. At least from a historical standpoint.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:00 am 
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Movement from a forest hex is a bug, should I tell John to fix it[?][:D]

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:03 pm 
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<b></b><font color="beige">Rich,

While you're at it can you see about fixing mounted cavalry moving from woods to clear terrain[}:)][;)]

On a serious note, the prolonging movement having to take place in clear terrain seems realistic but the fire sequence and resulting disruption is contrary to the methods used while prolonging. What was the thinking behind the guns becoming disrupted when prolonged? Was the intent to halve the fire? Would not the movement before fire result in halve fire power? There is also the loss of fire effectiveness from the added hex distance to the target to be considered.

From the postings so far it appears there is some confusion as to just what prolonging is, it is not necessarily using the guns recoil to withdraw.

The prolonge is a rope (about 26 feet long) which when not in use is wrapped on hooks on the tailpiece (stock) of the gun. When in use this rope is attached to the lunette (the tow loop) on the gun and the other end to the pintle hook on the limber. In action the gun would be drawn to the rear by the limber with the length of the prolonge rope between the limber and the gun. the gun could be sponged and loaded while moving, the team would stop long enough for the gun to be aimed and fired and then moved again. [/b]</font id="beige">
(Coggins "Arms & Equip. of the Civil War)(Ordnance Manual U.S. Army 1850)

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:07 am 
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One thing that should be remembered is that each hex is 125 yards, so potentially, from end to end, that's 250yards.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"


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