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PostPosted: Wed Oct 29, 2008 11:49 pm 
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Posts: 851
Location: Panhandle of Texas
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by James Broadhead</i>
<br />Gentlemen, if you will forgive a new member butting in...

Fld. Lt. James Broadhead
2nd Brigade
1st Infantry Division "The Fianna"
II Corps "The Light Fighters"
Army of Alabama
CSA
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Lt. Broadhead, the whole purpose of these threads is to get people to join in, new members or old, in discussing the American Civil War. Back in the day there used to be more discussions of this nature and I'd like to see those return. I'll be posting similar threads in the future and I wholeheartedly expect any member who has an opinion to step in and state it, even if it is wrong like yours. [:D]

General Mark Nelms
6/3/IX/AoO
"Blackhawk Brigade"
Union Military Academy Instructor
Union Cabinet Secretary


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:29 am 
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Location: USA
R.E. Lee never won another major battle after the death of Jackson and that is a fact and never sent a Union Army into retreat again. That being said I think it is doubtful that Jackson would have made a great 'Army Commander'.

The entire Overland Campaign was a battle of Grant trying to maneuver a ponderous AOP around the right flank of the ANV which was marching on interior lines. The Wilderness, Spotsylvania were races which the slow moving AOP lost. Cold Harbor was an expression of his frustration with the AOP and it's commanders' inability to move the Army quickly. So hit them head on. Isn't this similar to Lee's decision to attack the Union center on the 3rd day over Longstreet's
pleas to disengage and move around their flank. Afterall Lee's men had never failed to take a position he had asked them to.

Lunch is over-time to get back to work. I'll try to respond to the howls of rage tonight.[;)][:o)]



Brig. Gen. Phil Driscoll
1st Brigade/1st Division/VCorps/AoP


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:49 am 
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Location: Somewhere between D.C. and the battlefield
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by nsimms</i>
<br />I always thought that Lee was sick at his two low tides (Malvern Hill and Gettysburg) and that Jackson had gone for days without sleep during the Seven Days. Neither was operating at their full mental and physical capacities during their worst performances.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

But then nobody in war ever is. No excuse.

Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
3/2/VIII AoS
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West Point Class of '01


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:54 am 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Gary McClellan</i>
I'd still take Moltke over Lee [...]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

No doubt, but is the comparison fair? Moltke was a professional with decades of experience and he had a fine-tuned general staff system that permeated a professional standing army with a peacetime establishment up to and including the corps level of command.

Lee, conversely, was a colonel of engineers put in charge of an amateur volunteer army with no peacetime command establishment whatsoever and way to large to really lead with a tiny personal staff with no particular training for the job. Given this circumstances he really did quite well if you ask me.

Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
3/2/VIII AoS
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West Point Class of '01


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:59 am 
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Location: USA
Well Jackson was no John Pope but, uh, err,


<font color="yellow"><font size="1">never mind</font id="size1"></font id="yellow">

Lt. Gen. Ed Blackburn
I/I/VI/AoS
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 11:53 am 
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Location: USA
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Phil Driscoll</i>
<br />R.E. Lee never won another major battle after the death of Jackson and that is a fact and never sent a Union Army into retreat again. That being said I think it is doubtful that Jackson would have made a great 'Army Commander'.

The entire Overland Campaign was a battle of Grant trying to maneuver a ponderous AOP around the right flank of the ANV which was marching on interior lines. The Wilderness, Spotsylvania were races which the slow moving AOP lost. Cold Harbor was an expression of his frustration with the AOP and it's commanders' inability to move the Army quickly. So hit them head on. Isn't this similar to Lee's decision to attack the Union center on the 3rd day over Longstreet's
pleas to disengage and move around their flank. Afterall Lee's men had never failed to take a position he had asked them to.

Lunch is over-time to get back to work. I'll try to respond to the howls of rage tonight.[;)][:o)]

Brig. Gen. Phil Driscoll
1st Brigade/1st Division/VCorps/AoP
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

[:(!][:(!]Howl...Howl[:(!][:(!]Rage...Rage[xx(][xx(]
Or one could view the Overland Campaign as a series of tactical defeats of an army twice the size of it's opponent while Grant tried to correct by attempting to turn Lee's right. Considering his stated objective was the defeat of Lee's army the campaign was a strategic failure as well. If his objective was to push Lee back into the Richmond defenses he could have joined Butler at any time by water an achieved that goal.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
1/1/III AoM (CSA)


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 30, 2008 12:17 pm 
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The comparison of Grant to Lee kind of reminds me of the chess exhibitions where a grand master would play without a rook. Every now and then a challenger would prevail. That didn't make him the equal of a grand master.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:19 am 
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Location: Australia
Sorry, I'll step out of context and ...

Yep, Grant learned from Sherman. War is indeed hell! He had the mostest and the trick was to apply it. The war was to be won in the East. Meade wasn't the best, but he was the best of the rest. Both of them agreed that reinforcing Butler was a WOFTAM.

Manoeuvring to the left each time they got their noses punched by Lee was inspired. What lost it for Lee was that Grant recognised and took the left (his left) from the start so that he could continue to manoeuvre to the left (South) after each day's contact.

Lee knew what he was up against and was capable enough to compete, but didn't have the numbers. He couldn't reset the initiative and, once defending a capital, as opposed to a Government that could relocate, the Southern cause was doomed.



General Mark Oakford
Commander
Army of the Potomac


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2008 8:04 am 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mihalik</i>
<br />The comparison of Grant to Lee kind of reminds me of the chess exhibitions where a grand master would play without a rook. Every now and then a challenger would prevail. That didn't make him the equal of a grand master.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

That's true. Though I am surprised to see a Reb call Grant a grand master. (But I like the pun).

Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
3/2/VIII AoS
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West Point Class of '01


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