American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)

I don't know if this has been discussed but why aren't captured guns worth any victory points? Also in Campaign Chickamauga I hit a Union gun with counter battery fire and the distruction of one gun was worth 390 points. This seems high. I get 390 for hitting one gun and zero for capturing over 10. Explanations?

Lt General Jon Thayer
III Corps
Army of Northern Virginia

jonathanthayer@bellsouth.net

Jon,

The thing with captured guns is that you have to keep an infantry/cavalry unit in that hex to keep the points. Also, the number of captured guns does not show on the victory screen but the points do . Perhaps that explains your points dilemma.

I find the whole captured guns too confusing for moi so most of my HPS games now are played with that option off.

Lt.General Dale Lastowicka
XIX Corps, AOS

Games:
Battleground: Gettysburg, Shiloh, Antietam, Bull Run, Chickamauga
HPS(prefer PHASED PLAY ):Corinth, Ozark, Franklin, Peninsula, Vicksburg, Atlanta

They'll also keep their captured status with a wagon or a lone officer on them I believe.

General Mark Nelms
6/3/IX/AoO
"Blackhawk Brigade"
Union Military Academy Instructor
Union Cabinet Secretary

I would recommend using the rule for small scale games, and not for large, 100+ turn games.

BTW, Dale must be right about the VP issue. If not, send a file to HPS support.

Remember, optional rules are just that, optional. They are not intended to all be played all the time.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

Right now the "Capture Artillery" optional rule has to many bugs and other problems to be of any use. Being able to capture and use the captured gun is a nice touch but doesn't offset it's other problems. And I agree with the earlier post you probably aren't seeing the VP awarded for capture because its doesn't show up on the artillery line for some reason and also requires you to leave a unit on it.

Now for the problems:

1. Captured guns are returned to the enemy at full strength in campaigns. Never use this rule in a campaign game. You end up with the ridicuious tactic of having to use some of your guns to permantently kill the captured guns but shooting at them.

2. You have to garrison the guns to get the VP at the end of the battle. In small engagements this can take up a significant amount of you force. In large map games this can leave units out of support distance of you main force. Using leaders and wagons just exposes them to enemy cavalry in your rear.

3. In battles that are characterized by an ebb and flow (one side is driven back initially then reinforced to retake ground lost), one side can take advantage of knowing they can take all their guns back later to use them very aggressively knowing they will be lost.

It's a fun rule but to broke right now to be of any use.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
1/1/III AoM (CSA)

As a long-time proponent of a captured artillery rule, I acknowledge this one has flaws. It isn't quite what I envisioned, but I believe it is better than the original situation where the guns go poof as soon as they are captured. To my knowledge, that never happened, but instances of guns being captured, turned on their original owners, or recaptured is well-documented.

I think a lot of the problems with the rule go all the way back to design decisions made in developing the very first Talonsoft ACW game, back in 1995. Among these are the ammo resupply system and the lack of a crew. Actually, I believe the old SSI civil War games were superior in this respect. Here are the problems as I see them:

1) Crew casualties are an all or nothing deal, and if you kill one, you get no points for it. If you kill several in a melee they aren't really dead.

2) If artillery is captured, there is no crew to kill. Unless you get enemy units off of the captured artillery, it can keep shooting at you. You can knock out the guns with artillery fire, but then the enemy gets the points because they were originally your guns.

3) As long as there are rounds in the artillery pool, captured artillery can fire. While I have read many accounts of captured artillery being used to fire at their previous owners, I have yet to read one where they were resupplied with ammo. Here is where the flawed ammo resupply system comes in. If each unit had its own supply of ammo, the captured artillery unit would only have whatever was left of its allotment to be fired by the capturing player.

4) The artillery reverts to its previous owner when not physically occupied by the capturing player. Guns are inanimate objects like supply wagons. They ought to change color when captured like supply wagons and belong to the capturing player. The capturing player ought to get full points for capturing guns and half points for spiking or destroying them. Capturing guns denies them to the enemy AND benefits the capturing side. Destroying guns merely denies them to the enemy. I am no computer expert but I can't imagine that basic improvement to be difficult to implement.

5) The campaign carryover problem is a real drawback. You have the same problem with captured and destroyed supplies; it doesn't matter how many supplies you use or lose in a scenario, you get a full complement, no more and no less, in the next scenario. It probably could be fixed, but John is probably spread too thin with so many games covering so many conflicts to get around to it. C'est la vie.

In closing, I am grateful Rich got John to implement this and several other options that add historical flavor to the game. As several of you have noted, they can be used or rejected. For all its faults I find it more historically valid than the default rule. I admit it can lead to gamey tactics, but the whole system lends itself to gamey tactics. Probably because it is a game. I think these could be minimized though with improvements as noted above.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mihalik</i>
<br />As a long-time proponent of a captured artillery rule, I acknowledge this one has flaws. It isn't quite what I envisioned, but I believe it is better than the original situation where the guns go poof as soon as they are captured. To my knowledge, that never happened, but instances of guns being captured, turned on their original owners, or recaptured is well-documented.

I think a lot of the problems with the rule go all the way back to design decisions made in developing the very first Talonsoft ACW game, back in 1995. Among these are the ammo resupply system and the lack of a crew. Actually, I believe the old SSI civil War games were superior in this respect. Here are the problems as I see them:

1) Crew casualties are an all or nothing deal, and if you kill one, you get no points for it. If you kill several in a melee they aren't really dead.

2) If artillery is captured, there is no crew to kill. Unless you get enemy units off of the captured artillery, it can keep shooting at you. You can knock out the guns with artillery fire, but then the enemy gets the points because they were originally your guns.

3) As long as there are rounds in the artillery pool, captured artillery can fire. While I have read many accounts of captured artillery being used to fire at their previous owners, I have yet to read one where they were resupplied with ammo. Here is where the flawed ammo resupply system comes in. If each unit had its own supply of ammo, the captured artillery unit would only have whatever was left of its allotment to be fired by the capturing player.

4) The artillery reverts to its previous owner when not physically occupied by the capturing player. Guns are inanimate objects like supply wagons. They ought to change color when captured like supply wagons and belong to the capturing player. The capturing player ought to get full points for capturing guns and half points for spiking or destroying them. Capturing guns denies them to the enemy AND benefits the capturing side. Destroying guns merely denies them to the enemy. I am no computer expert but I can't imagine that basic improvement to be difficult to implement.

5) The campaign carryover problem is a real drawback. You have the same problem with captured and destroyed supplies; it doesn't matter how many supplies you use or lose in a scenario, you get a full complement, no more and no less, in the next scenario. It probably could be fixed, but John is probably spread too thin with so many games covering so many conflicts to get around to it. C'est la vie.

In closing, I am grateful Rich got John to implement this and several other options that add historical flavor to the game. As several of you have noted, they can be used or rejected. For all its faults I find it more historically valid than the default rule. I admit it can lead to gamey tactics, but the whole system lends itself to gamey tactics. Probably because it is a game. I think these could be minimized though with improvements as noted above.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">


Mike,

John fixed your number 2 point.

Fire losses against captured artillery shouldn’t award any points to either side by itself. Of course, the capturing side losses the capture points.

Rich


Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

BTW,

In addition to fixing your second point, Victory points will not be awarded for destroying abandoned (Uncrewed/spiked) artillery. So the gamey tactic of destroying abandoned artillery for VPs will no longer be an issue.

Rich



Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

Rich, maybe I'm misunderstanding. Are you saying that a future patch will not award points for destruction of any artillery pieces after you have captured them? For example, the Rebs uncrew a battery of 4 Union guns (no points) and move a unit onto them (120 points if 30 points per gun) but then moves a battery up behind them, removes the Reb unit (now zero points again) and destroys them with arty fire. Instead of getting the 120 points permanently for the destruction of the guns (and they won't reappear if you're playing a campaign) then the patch will give zero points for the destruction of the guns? So the Rebs destroy a battery and get nothing in return except for 4 guns that will not reappear in future scenarios of the campaign?

Also as an alias to this, could you confirm that in the example above, none of the guns would reappear in a future campaign scenario or would the batteries reappear with one gun each.

Lt Gen Ned Simms
1/1/VIII/AoS/USA
Blood 'n Guts hisself, a land lovin' pirate. Show me some arty tubes and we'll charge 'em.
VMI Class of '00

Hi,

I am saying the next title and future patches will not award points for the destruction of abandoned arty (Uncrewed or spiked). Also points will not be awarded for the destruction of guns captured by the enemy.

Points will still be awarded for occupied captured and spiked guns.

I haven't tested the impact on campaigns.

<i>So the Rebs destroy a battery and get nothing in return except for 4 guns that will not reappear in future scenarios of the campaign?</i>

With the campaign issue aside, if you destroy captured guns, you get nothing. Getting points is a gamey tactic. Why would you destroy guns you have captured?

In short, it is gamey to capture guns, move off the capturing Inf/cav unit (thus abandoning the artillery), setting up artillery to shoot them at point blank range, destroy them and receive points.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

Thanks Rich,

<i>Why would you destroy guns you have captured?</i>

So that you don't have to leave a unit behind to occupy them in order to get points and to keep them from reappearing in future scenarios in a campaign.

It sounds like with your patch, if you capture guns and then destroy them, then you get zero points for capturing them in the first place. Gamey would be getting points for capturing them and then getting double points for destroying them.

Thats just an opinion, Rich. I love your work anyway and look forward to your next title.

Lt Gen Ned Simms
1/1/VIII/AoS/USA
Blood 'n Guts hisself, a land lovin' pirate. Show me some arty tubes and we'll charge 'em.
VMI Class of '00

As I mentioned, let's for the moment keep the Campaign feature out of this discussion. I'm trying to ascertain the impact for campaign games, which for the moment is not complete.

So this new upgrade will:

1) No longer award points to the capturing side for captured guns destroyed during counter-battery fire.

2) No longer award points for the destruction of uncrewed artillery, or for the destruction of spiked artillery.

3) Points will be awarded for captured, and enemy spiked guns that are occupied by friendly troops (including leaders and supply wagons).

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

One more thing,

The issue of independent artillery crews and unoccupied arty ownership for the capturing side is still on the table, but for the moment requires programming time that is not available. So we are trying to make due with what we have.



Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rich Walker</i>
<br />Hi,

I am saying the next title and future patches will not award points for the destruction of abandoned arty (Uncrewed or spiked). Also points will not be awarded for the destruction of guns captured by the enemy.

Points will still be awarded for occupied captured and spiked guns.

I haven't tested the impact on campaigns.

<i>So the Rebs destroy a battery and get nothing in return except for 4 guns that will not reappear in future scenarios of the campaign?</i>

With the campaign issue aside, if you destroy captured guns, you get nothing. Getting points is a gamey tactic. Why would you destroy guns you have captured?

In short, it is gamey to capture guns, move off the capturing Inf/cav unit (thus abandoning the artillery), setting up artillery to shoot them at point blank range, destroy them and receive points.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

You shoot them because the screwed up game doesn't allow you to do anything else. As is the worse thing you can do is accidentally kill a crew before you reduce the gun by cannon fire. Also many scenarios are designed for one side to be the attacker and take ground and the defender wins by how well he resists this. With no penality for losing guns to small arms fire the attacker can use his artillery like tanks running them up two hexes from the enemy and unlimbering them. If the enemy has little or no artillery there is little risk to the attacker and everything to gain from forcing the defender to retreat or take almost point blank fire.

If you are going to take away shooting the guns to get the VP you need to substitute some kind of penality for losing a battery. Crew loss has no affect unless the player recrews the gun for some reason.

My suggestions:

Take away the need to garrison a captured gun. You shouldn't have to leave behind 500 men to protect a cannon. After a battery is captured or loses its crew, the side losing the guns should immediately lose full VP for it.

If either side spikes it then they should lose half VP unless they retake the guns.

For either side to claim the gun for VP they should have to recrew the guns.

If its the original owner that recrews then he could move it as a disrupted unit (I think a recrewed gun ought to be treated as a disrupted unit for remainder of game).

If its the enemy that recrews the gun then they should be able to move the gun either by prolong, one hex, or limbered at quarter MP (both sides had horses and mules with the divisions).

And fix the bug in carrying guns over in the campaign system.


While this isn't completely historical it addresses at least some of the major problems. There must be a penalty of losing a gun and it's crew. Recapturing does not remove the penalty for losing the crew. You shouldn't be able to recapture guns in the enemy's rear with stray units that you manage to get back there. The player shouldn't have to garrison his rear areas with major formations in order to secure unmovable objects. For that matter you shouldn't be able to capture VP hexes in the rear with stray units.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
1/1/III AoM (CSA)

Hi Kennon, et al

Just so we're clear;

1) You still get VPs for destroying guns.

2) You do not get points for destroying abandoned guns.

3) The occupation of captured/spiked guns is a programming issue and at present there is no time to resolve it.

4) I will soon try to resolve the campaign carryover issue.

5) You said: <i>With no penality for losing guns to small arms fire the attacker can use his artillery like tanks running them up two hexes from the enemy and unlimbering them.</i> The penalty is that the attacker will likely get his arty either uncrewed or captured before they can unlimber and fire. Or they will be destroyed by enemy arty. No very advisable!

6) You need not leave 500 men to garrison arty, any leader, or nearly depleted supply wagon will be enough.

7) Your suggestions are fine, but then there's that programming time issue.

Again, I believe it is a far better short term fix. Players trying to knock out firing captured arty will no longer lose points for being successful. Players will no longer be able to destroy and receive points for moving off captured arty and destroying them. That is very ahistorical. I can personally think of a great number of suggestions to make things better, but I realize that since programming is a big issue in our dream world, we will have to think small and hope for better later.

Lt. Col. Richard Walker
I Corps
Army of the Mississippi
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division
"Defenders of Tennessee"