American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)

I am finishing up the HPS 007 Gettysburg 3 day battle as the rebel with 3 turns left to go. A major problem and constant past irritation is that 10 turns from the finish, every artillery unit in my army ran out of ammunition,...that means simultaneously. [:(!]

The artillery carefully chosen locations that protected my infantry were suddenly useless and the units were a liability toward capture instead of an asset to hold back the yankee onslaught.
I should have been withdrawing artillery units hours before to avoid the situation. But they were major factors in preventing the union from having a one sided walkover and easy major victory.

It would be preferable to have infinite artillery ammo supply everywhere all the time. It would keep 1 gun units useful in play rather than withdrawing them to conserve ammo. I am presently learning the <u>game editor</u> to try and address that and other problems.

Realism would be to have every combat unit with a basic load which would run out in about an hour of continuous combat, unless a wagon unit is near enough to resupply units. Units should have to be withdrawn for resupply after about an hour with continuous firing. I would probably set it at 4 turns, an hour and 20 minutes.
Total War: Shogun and Medieval have such a system for ranged fire weapons, artillery and firearms, although they do not provide resupply, and I find that it plays well.

I remember that a year or so ago, a discussion that someone wrote that <font color="yellow">it is possible to make wagons increase their small arms ammo supply number by accessing a certain file and increasing the supply number</font id="yellow">. I cannot find it in the search function for this club site. (upper right hand corner)
<font color="yellow">Would someone reading this thread provide this information again, please</font id="yellow">?

<font color="orange">Ideally, wagons would resupply both artillery and infantry units, but it has previously been made clear that that will not likely happen anytime soon.</font id="orange">
Various infantry units should be constantly running low on ammo during continuous ranged fire combat, unless a wagon unit is within supply range.
One solution would be to have about a 25% chance of running low on ammo and give the wagons a humongous large number to compensate for the extra resupply demand. I believe that it would put pressure on players' unit movement and supply management that would be more realistic without being too onerous.

I am open to suggestions for alternate solutions that might work better. [:p][?]

BG Ross McDaniel
2nd Bde, 3rd Div, III Corps, AoG, CSA

Stand up and fight! Not one step back, that is the idea. Fight it out, whatever comes. Let the stars move from the spheres! Let the whole world stand against us! Death means only a change of garment. What of it? Thus fight! You gain nothing by becoming cowards. Taking a step backward, you do not avoid any misfortune. You have cried to all the gods in the world. Has misery ceased? The gods come to help you when you have succeeded. So what is the use? Die game. You are infinite, deathless, birth less. Because you are infinite spirit, it does not befit you to be a slave. Arise! Awake! Stand up and fight! — Swami Vivekananda

Hi, General,

If have been able to conserve ammo enough to make it last until three turns before the end of the game, I take my hat off to you. I ran out near the end of the second day, but we were playing phases, which I think uses more ammo than single turn. Hopefully some day Doug Strickland will allow the optional rules to be added to HPS Gettysburg, including ammo use by tube, which would help.

I really do not know why Talonsoft used the ammo system they did but I think they erred in not allowing all units to carry a basic load, which would need to be replaced from supply wagons after it was depleted. Their reasoning was that since some regiment at Shiloh forgot their ammunition, all regiments must therefore have the opportunity to be equally incompetent. Where they got the artillery ammo pool concept from I have no idea.

Specifically, in the Battle of Gettysburg scenarios, the Confederates are woefully shortchanged on ammo for both artillery and infantry. I suspect the ammo allotments might have been based on single turn, which I am surmising would not use as much ammo on defensive fire as in phased play. In the historical battle, their actual expenditure averaged 27 rounds/man, although undoubtedly this figure doesn't include ammo salvaged from Union casualties.

Under the current system, for phased play, the Confederates should probably have three more Corps reserve wagons as well as an additional army reserve wagon, and 1000 more rounds of artillery ammo, IHMO. Either that, or just turn the ADF off and use manual defensive fire.

One other problem I experienced was that ADF had several sections shooting at ranges of three or four hexes rather than at adjacent units. Don't know if that was ever fixed, but I haven't noticed it since. But that is another problem manual defensive fire would solve.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA

I, like Ross, ran out of artillery ammo with a few turns to go in a 205 turn campaign battle. But I disagree on the realism assessment for artillery ammo. The rebs did run out of ammo in this battle on the 3rd day and used their artillery much less than we often do in the game. I was very careful with it on the first day of the battle, reckless on the second when I sought to win and very conservative on the last day, using artillery only at my most threatened points, and I still ran out. I think more of a problem is what Ross points out about infantry. If you get lucky, you can have a unit in combat for six hours straight and maybe never run low on ammo.

So I see it as a mismatch of ammo supplies. But if small arms ammo were lessened we would all howl too! Who wants a tactical game to end without a decision cause we ran out of ammo!

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jim Pfleck</i>
<br />I, like Ross, ran out of artillery ammo with a few turns to go in a 205 turn campaign battle. But I disagree on the realism assessment for artillery ammo. The rebs did run out of ammo in this battle on the 3rd day and used their artillery much less than we often do in the game. I was very careful with it on the first day of the battle, reckless on the second when I sought to win and very conservative on the last day, using artillery only at my most threatened points, and I still ran out. I think more of a problem is what Ross points out about infantry. If you get lucky, you can have a unit in combat for six hours straight and maybe never run low on ammo.

So I see it as a mismatch of ammo supplies. But if small arms ammo were lessened we would all howl too! Who wants a tactical game to end without a decision cause we ran out of ammo!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Sorry, but the Rebs did NOT run out of arty ammo at the real battle of Gettysburg. They ran low, but they did not run out. There is a difference.

Funny that they didn't run out of ammo in 1864 between May and July when there was nearly constant fighting between the Wilderness and Petersburg (though granted not every day was heavy fighting on the scale of Gettysburg).

Regards,

Lt. Gen. Alan Lynn
CSA Chief of Staff
3rd Bgde, 3rd Cav Div, II Corps, AoA

God Bless <><

The scenario Ross is referring to is the modified one from the War College site. We are playing a mirror match and we both ran out of Rebel ammo from the end. I had added an additional 600 round to the CSA side trying to compensate them for the one gun batteries. I also increased the number of supply wagons by about one third to help on the small arms side. To compensate for the higher level of artillery fire and to discourage its over use, I reduced the fire factors for ranges over six or so hexes.

There are really two inacting problems with ammo supply for artillery and small arms. For artillery the major problem is expendeniture per battery rather than by tube. This will hopefully be fixed (soon [:D]) in the next update to Gettysburg. Until this fix comes out the only way to make the single guns of the CSA useable is to give unlimited artillery ammo to them. This would badly warp the game so I hope for an update. The other artillery ammo problem is the limited ability to manage the use of ammo. You can step down from the AI firing Long Range but the next step, short range only, is to severe. Once the other side realizes you have reduce the range to short they can easily game it. We need a little more control in the setting of the AI's auto fire criteria.

This lack of ammo management is further magnified by the difficulty in estimating how fast your ammo is being used up in a battle as long as Gettysburg. By the time you realize you are low no setting will stop you from running out. This is also in part caused by we players firing off everything we have trying to win the battle on the first day.[:)]

Small arms ammo supply is a little different but does share the lack of control required to properly manage ammo use. Two settings, one hex and anything you can see, are not sufficient to manage the supply at the levels they are available in these long battles. Here again we need at least three possibly four range settings to manage AI fire. The other part of the small arms ammo problem is we shoot to much. The fire tables allow the weapons to be used at ranges effectively that just weren't used in the Civil War. At five hundred yards our units can get good kills but historically they didn't fire at those ranges because they wouldn't hit a thing assuming they could see anything. Such fire was left to skirmishers deployed in front or sharpshooters and in our game scale would have no measurable affect. One of the things I did in the modified scenarios was reduce the maximum rifle range to four hexes.

The ideal solution to both types of fire would be to be able to set a threshold for fire based on the likelyhood of doing damage. This would keep guns from firing away at targets they can't damage while still giving the enemy reason not to march a unit up and stop five hexes out knowing the six gun battery he faces won't fire in defense.

Regarding the adding of wagons and/or ammount of ammo carried in wagons for small arms. A quick test of this has pretty much convenced me that you can only add Army level supply wagons to a scenario. The division level ones are in the OOB and can not be increased. I looks like the amount of ammo carried by both types of wagons is also set in the OOB which is locked so you can't change it.

I increased the number of supply wagons in the modified scenario by adding one army level wagon to each CSA division and USA Corps. I also added army level wagons as reinforcements at 4 AM each day. While this solves the running out of small arms ammo problem in the three day game, it also allows entirely to much fighting.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
1/1/III AoM (CSA)

I don't know, reading this, it strikes me oddly that we're able to talk about "managing" our artillery ammunition supplies, and the like.

The commanding generals on each side could pass down orders, urging the men to conserve their limited ammunition, but even so, we all know that troops in combat are not likely to listen to those sorts of orders.

I agree, the per-tube mod needs to be patched into Gettysburg, but I don't think we need to go any further than that.



Major General Gary McClellan
1st Division, XXIII Corps
AoO,USA

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Gary McClellan</i>
<br />I don't know, reading this, it strikes me oddly that we're able to talk about "managing" our artillery ammunition supplies, and the like.

The commanding generals on each side could pass down orders, urging the men to conserve their limited ammunition, but even so, we all know that troops in combat are not likely to listen to those sorts of orders.

I agree, the per-tube mod needs to be patched into Gettysburg, but I don't think we need to go any further than that.



Major General Gary McClellan
1st Division, XXIII Corps
AoO,USA
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Players have to manage because the units don't. Any real artillery section commander who allowed his men to fire off all there ammo without orders would have found themselves in the infantry. The player's problem is its hard to relate fire rate in a turn with what its doing to the total ammo supply over time. I would like to see the combination of one shot per barrel, more AI defensive fire selections, and lower total ammo. This would force artillery to be used as it was. A defensive weapon not an assault weapon.

I would be nice if the game engine allowed its offensive role to be better simulated. That is, supressing enemy artillery and demoralizing and disrupting enemy troops in defensive positions. It would also be a nice touch to have artillery ammo depletion by unit with a resupply system rather than the current of all or nothing.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
1/1/III AoM (CSA)

Kennon, I agree with your last point. And the Rebs may not have run out but they were low enough that they were pretty worried about it and it changed their behavior.

The ammo points by barrel would certainly solve the problem Ross raises about the one gun batteries..

The ANV ran low on artillery ammo on the 3rd day because the commander of the supply train moved the wagons away without informing the chief of artillery. The artillery crewmen riding limbers to get resupply found them gone without warning.
That is as it should be. Firing units outside of supply range, should run low and then out. We have it somewhat for infantry and cav, but not for artillery. I would suggest automatic <u>low ammo</u> at either 2 or 3 turns of play (40 minutes or 1 hour) and a 50% chance of <u>out of ammo</u> for the next 2 turns of firing, then out of ammo. That should put a crimp on sustained combat when away from supply! [:D]
A universal, abstract army supply depot for artillery ammo and consumption by battery or section was probably decided back during TalonSoft days, and I consider it the lazy solution. Consumption by tube is the way to go. Hopefully the next generation of games or patches will correct both.

If infantry and artillery units out of supply range during ranged fire were running out of ammo in 3 or 4 turns, it would change our habits of fanning out and going after any opportune targets, fighting so much and necessitate keeping our larger brigade/division organizations closer together for re-supply support.

I say that that constraint would be more realistic and would probably address the constant comment that we fight and fire much more than ACW units did. At least, players who march out of supply range would have that problem to deal with, and some would handle it better than others.

BG Ross McDaniel
2nd Bde, 3rd Div, III Corps, AoG, CSA

Stand up and fight! Not one step back, that is the idea. Fight it out, whatever comes. Let the stars move from the spheres! Let the whole world stand against us! Death means only a change of garment. What of it? Thus fight! You gain nothing by becoming cowards. Taking a step backward, you do not avoid any misfortune. You have cried to all the gods in the world. Has misery ceased? The gods come to help you when you have succeeded. So what is the use? Die game. You are infinite, deathless, birth less. Because you are infinite spirit, it does not befit you to be a slave. Arise! Awake! Stand up and fight! — Swami Vivekananda

Who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time? -Jon Kurtz

I like it the way it is...

I'm lucky to remember to move the supply wagons to the right areas to begin with...


General Jeff Laub
Union Chief of the Army
ACWGC Cabinet Member
http://www.geocities.com/laubster22/UnionHQ/

This is an extremely imteresting thread, and one I believe that should be read by everyone. In our exhuberance to play these games we sometimes overlook the obvious distortions to realism; and the game mechanics involving ammunition supply for both artillery and infantry is one of those areas that needs to be addressed. There is nothing more exasperating for me than to see a well-equipped and good morale infantry or cavalry unit run out of ammo on its very first fire (being out of supply wagon range), or to discover the divisional supply wagon almost or nearly depleted on the first few fire turns when it is in range of those units getting nailed with random ammo losses!

Mihalik's comments concerning the games' ammunition supply abstracts really drew my attention and are worth a repeat!

<font color="orange"><i>"I really do not know why Talonsoft used the ammo system they did but I think they erred in not allowing all units to carry a basic load, which would need to be replaced from supply wagons after it was depleted. Their reasoning was that since some regiment at Shiloh forgot their ammunition, all regiments must therefore have the opportunity to be equally incompetent. Where they got the artillery ammo pool concept from I have no idea."</i></font id="orange">



Maj. Gen. Jos. C. Meyer
Second Division, 14th Corps,
Army of the Cumberland

Ideally, each unit (guns as well as infantry and cavalry) should have a certain amount of ammo, which should be recorded in the same way that fatigue and casualties are recorded. With extreme FOW, this ammo level wouldn't be known to the player. In the scenario editor it would be possible to modify the initial ammo level, so that those units that were historically low on ammo would start out that way.

Also there should be artillery supply wagons and each supply wagon (for both guns and small arms) would also indicate which type of ammo was carried. Thus the wagon might have ammo that wasn't suitable for a particular gun type.

However, this level of micromanagement may not appeal to all gamers and would probably be too time-consuming for John to code in.

So what can we realistically expect to see?

I reckon proper supply wagons for guns wouldn't be too much to ask for after all these years. This is something that really ought to have been present in the original BG engine more than a decade ago.


Brig. Gen. Rich White
3rd Brig. III Corps
Phantom Cav. Div.
ANV

<font color="yellow">My responses</font id="yellow">
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Also there should be artillery supply wagons and each supply wagon (for both guns and small arms) would also indicate which type of ammo was carried. Thus the wagon might have ammo that wasn't suitable for a particular gun type.
<font color="yellow">I believe that a wagon train could be programmed to carry two separate factors for small arms and cannon ammo. After all, infantry and cav can fight by ranged fire or melee. And we don't need to differentiate on cannon/gun type ammo just as we don't on small arms with muskets, rifles, breechloaders, carbines, etc. That would be getting into game-enjoyment destroying micromanagement.</font id="yellow">

However, this level of micromanagement may not appeal to all gamers and would probably be too time-consuming for John to code in.- BG Rich White
<font color="yellow">For those who don't want to manage supply wagons, there could be a toggle or game start option that all units would always have ammo. I would not like it although Gen Laub might. [;)]</font id="yellow"> <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
BG Ross McDaniel
2nd Bde, 3rd Div, III Corps, AoG, CSA

Stoop and you'll be stepped on; stand tall and you'll be shot at.-Carlos Urbizo

Possibly crawling on all fours might be safer than standing upright, but we like the view better up there. –Isabel Paterson

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Joe Meyer</i>
<br />This is an extremely imteresting thread, and one I believe that should be read by everyone. In our exhuberance to play these games we sometimes overlook the obvious distortions to realism; and the game mechanics involving ammunition supply for both artillery and infantry is one of those areas that needs to be addressed. There is nothing more exasperating for me than to see a well-equipped and good morale infantry or cavalry unit run out of ammo on its very first fire (being out of supply wagon range), or to discover the divisional supply wagon almost or nearly depleted on the first few fire turns when it is in range of those units getting nailed with random ammo losses!

Mihalik's comments concerning the games' ammunition supply abstracts really drew my attention and are worth a repeat!

<font color="orange"><i>"I really do not know why Talonsoft used the ammo system they did but I think they erred in not allowing all units to carry a basic load, which would need to be replaced from supply wagons after it was depleted. Their reasoning was that since some regiment at Shiloh forgot their ammunition, all regiments must therefore have the opportunity to be equally incompetent. Where they got the artillery ammo pool concept from I have no idea."</i></font id="orange">

Maj. Gen. Jos. C. Meyer
Second Division, 14th Corps,
Army of the Cumberland

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
True but also the exception which is not well simulated by the current system where all units have the same chance of running out of ammo on first shot. It in particular creates a problem for the Rebels on the first day of Gettysburg because their supply wagons are slow to enter. The more likely reason HPS uses the percentage depletion roll is it's easier than keeping track of actual ammo useage. On the average it simulates ammo useage but leads to oddities like one unit depleting of first fire and another fighting the whole battle without running out. It is one of those "one size fits all" things.

If one were wishing for better solutions it would be tracking fire with a increasing probability of ammo depletion occuring each time. This would make first fire rarely cause depletion but still possible to simulate arriving at the battle with low ammo and a steadily increasing probability each additional fire to simulate the unit shooting off all its ammo to rapidly and finally a 100% chance when it just fires to long.

Also it would be nice if resupply was based on the ammount needed. Right now a "Low Ammo" and a "No Ammo" are treated the same using up the same amount of ammo. It would be nice if the "Low Ammo" only used half. I have found myself having to micro manage ammo in scenarios where small arms is really low by having to keep wagons out of range of "Low" units.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
1/1/III AoM (CSA)

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">However, this level of micromanagement may not appeal to all gamers and would probably be too time-consuming for John to code in.- BG Rich White
For those who don't want to manage supply wagons, there could be a toggle or game start option that all units would always have ammo. I would not like it although Gen Laub might.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


BG Ross McDaniel
2nd Bde, 3rd Div, III Corps, AoG, CSA<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I wouldn't want unlimited ammo - I think as commanders, we should ahve to deal with some level of logisitcal thinking. The game makes us do this. On average, I think it evens out. Most times (in my recollection at any rate) one of the designers have commented on this subject, they have had good reasons for setting things up in a scenario the way they have. That's about all I can ask for.

That's not intended to squash the discussion - I think it's one of the true benefits of the Clubs that members debate and strategize on how to improve the games, and we've seen several ideas implemented into the games as a result, usually with an Optional Rule.

[8D]


General Jeff Laub
Union Chief of the Army
ACWGC Cabinet Member
http://www.geocities.com/laubster22/UnionHQ/