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Author:  Net Warrior [ Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:29 am ]
Post subject:  streams

In a locked thread, someone posted that <font color="red">"Hexside terrain like streams don't affect fire combat but do affect melee combat."</font id="red"> I can't find much in the manual about streams as a combat modifier. I tried play testing it and there didn't seem to be any modifier during fire combat or melee combat. Can anyone confirm this?



Major Bill Cirillo
3rd Brigade, 1st Div.
XX Corps, AoC, USA

Author:  D.S. Walter [ Tue Jul 07, 2009 9:54 am ]
Post subject: 

Actually I find nothing in the manual or PDT that indicates that hexside terrain modifiers affect fire and melee combat differently. The manual says on defensive fire modifiers:

"Target units which have not moved during their turn get a defensive benefit from certain hexsides. The actual benefit is determined by Parameter Data (...)"

And on melee modifiers:

"The largest hexside modifier of all of the hexsides the attackers are attacking through is applied to the attacking strength."

The PDT knows only "Terrain Combat Modifiers" (and I assume the word "combat" would not have been chosen here if it meant either only fire or only melee), and does not differentiate in any way between hex and hexside features. Admittedly the value is 0 for some hexside features (I am looking at HPS Gettysburg), but a rather hefty -40% for instance for stone walls or embankments.

I also ran a small test using HPS Gettysburg, and I am pretty confident hexside features give rather bad negative modifiers on both fire and melee. Check "on map results" OFF to see them in the combat report.



Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
3/2/VIII AoS
Image
West Point Class of '01

Author:  mihalik [ Wed Jul 08, 2009 4:58 am ]
Post subject: 

Hi,
I don't know about melee, but fire modifiers are cumulative. If you fire at a unit in the woods(-40%) behind an embankment (-50%) two levels of elevation above you (-20%), you can't inflict a casualty. Wish I could expound further on this anomalie but face time constraints.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA

Author:  KWhitehead [ Wed Jul 08, 2009 9:34 am ]
Post subject: 

Got to watch the terminology, these are Combat Modifiers. They are not necessarially fire or melee or both. Some apply only in special situations like that for Creek.

For Fire streams and creeks have no affect. They don't slow down or stop bullets.

For Melee streams have a -10% affect. However, in Melee only the highest hexside modifier is used that favors the defender. They are not additive. If you have two units entering the melee, one crosses a stream and the other a fence, then only the fence applies. And, watch this "favors the defender" part. If you melee a hex through the rear but include one unit that is meleeing through the frontal hexside you lose the attack bonus.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
1/1/III AoM (CSA)

Author:  nealcarney [ Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:46 am ]
Post subject: 

?In Col. Peters list, what is the difference between streams and creeks (other than 10%)? It can't be crossability or else melee would not be allowed.

Lt. Col. Neal Carney
AoO/IX/2/6
Image

Author:  Al Amos [ Wed Jul 08, 2009 1:02 pm ]
Post subject: 

Unless the engine has been changed, CREEK hexsides used to be uncrossable due to a hard code restriction.

al

Author:  KWhitehead [ Fri Jul 10, 2009 7:29 am ]
Post subject: 

Creeks are uncrossable so I don't know how the -20% penalty would ever be applied unless it is used when fords are provided. It also varies a bit from game to game. In Gettysburg there are no penalties for either streams or creeks.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
1/1/III AoM (CSA)

Author:  Bob Hughes [ Sun Jul 12, 2009 5:57 am ]
Post subject: 

I have found that skirmishers deployed to not give an indication of enemy troops present 2 hexes away across creeks. I am not sure that this is documented but this behavior makes sense.

AWC - Lieutenant General Bob "Stoneheart" Hughes
2nd Brigade, 3rd Division, IX Corps

Author:  D.S. Walter [ Sun Jul 12, 2009 7:09 am ]
Post subject: 

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by KWhitehead</i>
If you melee a hex through the rear but include one unit that is meleeing through the frontal hexside you lose the attack bonus.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

For all I know that's incorrect. It's true that the largest hexside modifier is used, so there is no benefit for having *some* units attack across unobstructed hexsides when others don't, but the same logic does not apply to the rear attack. One unit from the rear suffices to give the whole attacking force, regardless of direction, the rear attack modifier. It's the morale effect of being taken from the rear which this modifier represents, and that applies regardless of where the main attack is coming from.
(I was pretty sure of that, but I ran a test just to be completely sure. If you add the unit in the enemy's rear to the melee first, all units subsequently added, regardless of from where they attack, get the same modifier.)

Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
3/2/VIII AoS
Image
West Point Class of '01

Author:  KWhitehead [ Mon Jul 13, 2009 3:29 am ]
Post subject: 

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by D.S. Walter</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by KWhitehead</i>
If you melee a hex through the rear but include one unit that is meleeing through the frontal hexside you lose the attack bonus.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

For all I know that's incorrect. It's true that the largest hexside modifier is used, so there is no benefit for having *some* units attack across unobstructed hexsides when others don't, but the same logic does not apply to the rear attack. One unit from the rear suffices to give the whole attacking force, regardless of direction, the rear attack modifier. It's the morale effect of being taken from the rear which this modifier represents, and that applies regardless of where the main attack is coming from.
(I was pretty sure of that, but I ran a test just to be completely sure. If you add the unit in the enemy's rear to the melee first, all units subsequently added, regardless of from where they attack, get the same modifier.)

Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
3/2/VIII AoS
Image
West Point Class of '01
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

You are correct. I made a quick check with HPS Gettysburg and it did keep the modifier for rear even when one melee units wasn't. I don't know how the rule I guoted got into my Melee notes. It could have been a Battleground rule but I can't verify that since I no longer have BG games installed.

I could have sworn I had verified it on HPS and will have to check a bit further on other games in series just to be sure. Melee has a lot of different handling from fire combat so one has to be careful with assumptions like I made. It would have helped clarify things if HPS used separate parameters for melee and fire but since they are combined only manual testing of melees can verify the correct ones.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
1/1/III AoM (CSA)

Author:  D.S. Walter [ Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:12 am ]
Post subject: 

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by KWhitehead</i>
It would have helped clarify things if HPS used separate parameters for melee and fire but since they are combined only manual testing of melees can verify the correct ones.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Yes. One of the most fuzzy areas in the manual / engine / parameter data. Lots of things undocumented. Speak of the outward facing skirmisher in the Nappy series who negates the flank modifier (and whose facing one can only see in 3D).

Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
3/2/VIII AoS
Image
West Point Class of '01

Author:  D.S. Walter [ Mon Jul 13, 2009 4:13 am ]
Post subject: 

Oh btw I am quite certain BG worked the same.

Author:  Net Warrior [ Mon Jul 13, 2009 5:24 am ]
Post subject: 

Lots of great info. here. Thanks all.

I just found something of interest. If a unit changes facing while behind a stone wall they get the Fire combat modifier. However, if they deploy skirmishers, they don't get the Fire combat modifier.

Major Bill Cirillo
3rd Brigade, 1st Div.
XX Corps, AoC, USA

Author:  Dirk Gross [ Mon Jul 13, 2009 2:24 pm ]
Post subject: 

For the BG Series, this from the BG9 manual:

To resolve a melee, the program:

<ul><li>Adds two to the differential if any unit that advanced into the melee hex from a hex that was not in <i>any</i> defending unit's Field of Fire;

</li><li>Adds one to the differential if <i>no</i> attacking involved in the Melee fired during the preceeding Offensive Fire Phase;

</li><li>Subtracts one from the differential if <i>any</i> attacker involved in the Melee advanced into the hex across a breastwork hexside;

</li><li>Subtracts two from the differential if any attacking unit involved in the Melee advanced into the hex across a wall or embankment hexside (such that the defending unit would receive the embankment modifier if fired on by the attacker);

</li><li>Subtracts from the differential a number equal to the greatest number of elevation levels ascended by any one regiment as it advanced into the Melee;

</li><li>Subtracts one from the differential if any attacking unit is suffering from Low Fatigue (fatigue of 4-6), or two if any suffers from High Fatigue (fatigue of 7-9);

</li><li>Adds one to the differential if at least one leader is with the attacking unit(s), or subtracts one if at least one leader is with the defending unit(s).
</li></ul>

Lt. General Dirk Gross
XIV Corps/AoC

Image

Author:  D.S. Walter [ Mon Jul 13, 2009 8:48 pm ]
Post subject: 

Thank you, General Gross. So it's indeed the same logic in BG as in HPS. Any unit attacking from the rear gives a positive modifier to the entire force; and and any unit attacking across an obstructed hexside gives a negative modifier to the entire force. (Looking at it the way the BG manual states it, it's in fact the <i>same</i> logic for both cases.)

Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
3/2/VIII AoS
Image
West Point Class of '01

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