American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)

The first thing I noticed the moment I played a scenario on my recently acquired HPS Chancellorsville was that the Cavalry had "lost" 4 movement points, dropping from the "standard" 24 down to 20.
Designer preference? In games like these is such a variance to be welcomed?

It might seem a minor concern to many...but of all my bugbears about gaming, the one that upsets me most because of it's impact on the game experience is "non-standard" pdt settings.
Weather effects have their place for those that wish to play with them ...but am I right in thinking that the great majority of scenarios played are done so on "standard" settings?

HPS Gettyburg I feel is definitely effected by the fact that Artillery takes 4 MP's to limber/unlimber compared to the more common 3. All my time spent gaining experience on other games suddenly becomes skewed and the whole sense of perfecting and implementing tactics seems to shift slightly.
It must cause some confusion to green players that play their first Gettysburg after experience with Antietam or Atlanta or vice versa?

Why would Artillery be less flexible at Gettysburg compared to Antietam 8 months or Chancellorsville 2 months previously?
I admit the difference is minor, but I do think the effect is noticeable.
The supply wagon restriction is also hard to accept. Wagon mobility is significantly reduced. Much of the transport network across any of these titles is the minor dirt road. With wagon movement halved at gettysburg...things do definitely change. The conduct of operations is hampered and the games take on a standard and non-standard feel.

I accept the need or desire for challenge or unorthodox settings to test us, but the uneven pdt settings seems an anomaly in a club where rules and format are quite important. Would members welcome an attempt to "standardise" PDT settings on these rogue titles?

Brigadier-General Jim Wilkes.
2nd Brigade, Cavalry Division, XX Corps.
AoC. U.S.A.

While I wouldn't go so far as to label titles as 'rogue', I get where the sentiment is coming from - (caveat- although I have all of the titles in the ACW series ... I have not checked to see if they all include a uniform pdt file [whether it is used or not is another question]).

I agree that it would be helpful to have a standardized pdt file that can be applied from one title to the next, for exactly the same reason that BG Wilkes mentioned - for newer players.

Now the reason I loaded the post with disclaimers is that, if the file is included with each of the products at least some game soul (or souls) could at least go out there and take on the task of applying it to -if nothing else, the larger, main showpiece battle scenarios. I am writing this, under the impression that the pdt's are either locked or if not, then a little much for the average player, to be expected to go around and tweak until it is. In other words, I don't know if you can take a pdt from one title and apply it to another -and have it work.

Capt. Stephen Trauth
XVI Corps 1st Division 6th Brigade (divisional artillery)
AoT

PDT files vary from one designer to another, some agree with each other on the values, others designed the pdt file to match their own ideas. PDT files are not locked, <u>only map and oob files are locked</u>. You can modify pdt files using a text editor. You can also edit the scn files for a scenario.

I do not recommend modifying the stock pdt's because if your opponent doesn't use the same pdt you could have different values for movement, combat modifiers etc and this would be considered a form of cheating. If you modify a pdt it is best to save it under another name, the same is true if you modify a scenario. You can then share these with an opponent if he agrees on using the modifications. For more information on the what values are contained in the pdt and help in modifying pdt's as well as a primer on using the Scenario Editor see the ACWCO Engineering page at http://www.acwgc.org/ACWCO_Engineering/

Gen. Ken Miller
3/VIII
AoS

You have to be careful altering pdt values without knowing why the designer chose to make the changes they made. Until recently there was no way to include environmental affects except through the pdt file. Things like movement are affected by the condition and quality of the roads. The designer may use pdt values to show these affects on the battle. Even the effectiveness of weapons like artillery depend on ground conditions during the battle.

Also keep in mind that the scenarios are balanced using the pdt table that came with the game.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
1/1/III AoM (CSA)

It's always been this way ... designers make different decisions on some issues. MP vary widely between titles of the Napoleonic series. Cavalry is worth twice the number of VP in HPS Gettysburg as in other titles. I believe in the BG games it took one-half of the movement allowance to limber/unlimber artillery--that would be 6 MP in most cases.
The games play much differently depending on which optional rules you use. Check "partial retreats" off for instance and your entire tactics has to change to accomodate for that, at least when large regiments are involved. You play differently with our without rout limiting. And of course, there are worlds between the style of play required by a trans-Miss title like Ozark and a seabord title like Gettysburg.
In short, study the differences and learn to live with them. Keeps you mind flexible ... doesn't it?

Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
3/2/VIII AoS
West Point Class of '01
[url="http://www.home.datacomm.ch/dierk.walter/2VIIIAoS/persrecord.htm"][/url]
"... and keep moving on."

Everyone has made good points. There are so many variables.

I think you will find a lot of the changes in the games designed by Rich Walker, which by now is most of them. I think Rich is constantly trying to improve the product. I know he is accessible and amenable to suggestion, and is responsible for getting a lot of the optional rules implemented, such as artillery capture and spiking, cavalry scouting, artillery expenditure by tube, night marching fatigue and others. I don't always agree with Rich, but I sure appreciate his willingness to listen, not just to me but to all of us.

I would hope at some point that the PDT would be standardized, but that might not be for some time. For those unwilling to wait, just follow Ken Miller's excellent suggestions below. And you aren't limited to the designer's opinion. If you think a battery of napoleons should take out five hundred men at a range of 1, you can implement that; just suggest you clear it with your gaming partners first.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA

I rather oppose even trying to have a "standard" pdt. The variables in it interact with many things including optional rules. Just to give you an example of the error of thinking that one parameter fits all:

Roads - Are the roads in Maryland better than Virginia? How about western Maryland where they are winding around hills and going up and down? Are Virginia roads better than Arkansas roads?

If anything the pdt values are and oversimplification of just how much variation there was in road quality across the south. In some scenario you can justify giving units the same movement on pikes as roads. Others their is a big difference. Some roads were better able to handle wheeled vehicles than others. In the West most roads were rarely used farm roads that an army would turn to a deep pit if it moved in mass down it.

Woods are another area of variability. In the West they were often dense and unpassable while in Virginia they might be first generation regrowth. Or like the Wilderness with so much ground brush as to be worse than the West's. A senario designer has to look at these factors and decide whether they are significant to the battle and modify the parameters accordingly. Should all units be disrupted when they entire a woods hex? Are the tree hexes so open as to not represent that much hinderance to a line moving through it but still block LOS?

While I am all for customizing pdt files to reflect your interpretation of how the battle should be fought, I don't believe there is such a thing as a standard pdt set of values that will work across all the scenarios.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
1/1/III AoM (CSA)

Well said.

Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
3/2/VIII AoS
West Point Class of '01
[url="http://www.home.datacomm.ch/dierk.walter/2VIIIAoS/persrecord.htm"][/url]
"... and keep moving on."

Hmmm, perhaps we should complain that it takes 5 minutes for troopers to dismount when I know for a fact that John Wayne's troopers in "She Wore a Yellow Ribbon" took far less time to do it when they had to back up the paradise river patrol [;)] Or, even the fact that dismount/mount limber/unlimber values are the same when its obvious that the actions are not the exact opposite of each other.

To point, the designer of the game and the scenario designer have (hopefully) put a lot of time and thought into the values they used. Unless they have written it down somewhere, we don't know what the basis is, thus, we have no ability to "standardize" the PDT's in a responsible fashion.

General Wilkes, I really doubt neophytes to the gaming system even note the difference in limbering costs, although I am trying to impress all my cadets with the importance of the PDT. They still have enough problems dealing with basics of combat, movement, morale and leadership.

I have to agree with General Walker, the differences in the games keeps us from getting in a rut.... and proper tactics will work through most reasonable changes in the PDT. By this I mean the broad strokes, strike where the enemy is weakest, defeat in detail, etc.

(edited to correct an error and to explain what I meant)





Cpt Jack Waldron
2nd Bde/1st Div/XIX Corps/AoS/USA

"My aim, then, was to whip the rebels, to humble their pride, to follow them to their inmost recesses, and make them fear and dread us. Fear is the beginning of wisdom." William T Sherman

On the whole I'm with Kennon on this. I can live with a bit of variability and adapting to the circumstances and conditions of a particular campaign is part of the challenge and fun for me.


[url="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/a.r.barlow/acwgc/acwgc_personal_record.htm"]General Antony Barlow[/url]
[url="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/a.r.barlow/acwgc/western_theater.htm"]Commander, Western Theater, Union Army[/url]

I suppose I should have elaborated -that I would be for it as being included as an option, even if just for budding scenario editors.

Capt. Stephen Trauth
XVI Corps 1st Division 6th Brigade (divisional artillery)
AoT