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 Post subject: Routed units behind enemy lines
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:18 am 
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Playing a Peninsular campaign battle, my opponenent had some units rout beind my lines. I thought my lines were fairly tight but still they were behind me - most unbeknownst to me. I did discover two of them: one was a normal stabilized unitand another a disrupted unit. My opponent used both of them to over-run two batteries of 6 and 4 guns. Now my opponent was playing within the game system so its not something I can change other than whine like I'm doing now. Its just that 1)units that rout behind enemy lines should never reach "normal" status until they reach their own lines. They should at least stay at "disrupted" and never be able to melee or over-run any enemy unit other than a supply wagon ( which could re-arm them).
2) they should remain at "low on ammo" repreesenting the fact that routing troops tend to throw down their guns when they skeedadle unless- like I said earlier- they can get their hands on a supply wagon - then they could be armed but still at "disrupted" status.
In other words, a player should not be able to take advantage of these routed units that somehow get behind the opponents lines. My opponent was able to get to get to an mv which I had up to now been successful in preventing.

MG Drex Ringbloom,
Cdr, 2nd Div "Corcoran's Legion", VIII Corps
Army of the Shenandoah
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 11:55 am 
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This is a good example of why I like Isolation optional rule. It allows you to kill such a unit with a minimum of force. You don't mention what rules you are operating under but without the Isolation rule in effect it can take almost a whole brigade to hunt down and elliminate such detached units.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
1/1/III AoM (CSA)


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 2:37 pm 
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The isolation rule is in effect. The other problem is the AI often -when it can- hide these routed units so you don't know they are even around.

MG Drex Ringbloom,
Cdr, 2nd Div "Corcoran's Legion", VIII Corps
Army of the Shenandoah
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2009 5:17 pm 
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Not showing enemy units rout in the replay is a problem, and makes no sense. You should be able to see them rout and the path of their rout as long as they are in your LOS, but you can't. Bad enough they rout behind your lines, but at least that can be chalked up to the limitations of the AI.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 6:13 am 
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I've had it happen to me once but I didn't realize my opponent wasn't aware of the unit for a couple of turns. the problem is that you can't see your opponent's routs but you should if he goes through your lines. It may occur when you surround a unit but can;t close the circle for the zoc kill. If a gap is open toward your own lines, the unit will rout out that gap.

MG Drex Ringbloom,
Cdr, 2nd Div "Corcoran's Legion", VIII Corps
Army of the Shenandoah
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:06 am 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
<br />I would prefer that the unit just rout in place and not move. Then the players would move them in their own turn.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Bill,
That is a good idea! But I think routed units need at least full movement and maybe more.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 10:40 am 
Major General Ringbloom,
Drex,

Funny that this all happens all at the same time. I'm in a battle with Colonel Alan Benjamin and had some of his boys encirled and they routed away. I'm like scratching my head wondering where they went!

But in my case, I had enough units in the area to locate and eliminate them via melee. I'm sure Alan won't be too excited about it as he had me on the edge of a Minor Victory but my melee may have saved my bacon. [;)]

General Roger Hulinsky
Cmdg, AotM
Confederate States of America
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2009 1:05 pm 
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"I'm like scratching my head wondering where they went!" - General Hulinsky, cmdg AotM

Isn't this the SOP for the AotM? [;)]

Question? Does "cmdg" stand for Comedian General? [:D]

MG Al "Ambushed" Amos, Commanding Officer
4th "Amos' Ambushers" Bde, 1st Div, XX Corps, AoC, USA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:18 am 
As the commander of the afore mentioned Rebel army,I do have some sympathy Drex. I have no problem with the units routing behind enemy lines or becoming disrupted, but for them to become organised with no leaders in sight does seem a little odd.

Drex in the spirit of fair play, I will be happy to deduct the points for the artillery less my losses in taking them at the end of the scenario.

Regards

Steve

BGen Barrett
3rd Davalry Div
1st Corps
AoA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:23 am 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Al Amos</i>
<br />"I'm like scratching my head wondering where they went!" - General Hulinsky, cmdg AotM

Isn't this the SOP for the AotM? [;)]

Question? Does "cmdg" stand for Comedian General? [:D]

MG Al "Ambushed" Amos, Commanding Officer
4th "Amos' Ambushers" Bde, 1st Div, XX Corps, AoC, USA
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Us Rebs are always scratching our heads (has something to do some bothersome insect) and wondering which way the Yankee's ran. [:D]

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
1/1/III AoM (CSA)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 5:16 pm 
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Bill Peters' response shows a lot of sense. If a unit's status is "rout", why make it move at all? Leaving the movement to be voluntary, during the phasing player's movement step seems a very elegant way to solve this problem as well as that of routing through friendy units when there is plenty of 'gaps' to disappear through.

General Mark Oakford
Commander
Army of the Potomac


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:13 pm 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Bill Peters' response shows a lot of sense. If a unit's status is "rout", why make it move at all? Leaving the movement to be voluntary, during the phasing player's movement step seems a very elegant way to solve this problem as well as that of routing through friendy units when there is plenty of 'gaps' to disappear through.

General Mark Oakford
Commander
Army of the Potomac
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I think that routing through friendly units is historically fine, and helps represent the tendency of men to become disorganized and confused following the rout of the units to their fronts. Remember, these are men that are running away and ignoring orders, and we shouldn't really have that much control over them. I do, however, think that a friendly boardedge would help with the problem of running through the lines. It won't be perfect, but then war never is, and routing is one of the most uncertain things present in the game. We have so much ahistorical control over everything else that giving us more control over the only thing we currently don't control would be detrimental.

Maj. Dylan McCartney
IV Brigade/ I Division
XIV Corps
Army of the Cumberland


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 7:26 am 
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The problem is not routing through friendly units but routing through unfriendly units. Even that is not a problem except the AI doesn't let both sides see this. These routing units are not accompanied by path arrows showing where they went. The opposing player isn't aware of them but the friendly player is. This is not real. If anything, the opposing player should know about them leaving the friendly side wondering where the routers disappeared to.

MG Drex Ringbloom,
Cdr, 2nd Div "Corcoran's Legion", VIII Corps
Army of the Shenandoah
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 11:52 am 
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I am not sure what the reference is to "routing through unfriendly units" since they can't do that but can route through enemy ZOC's. It is mostly an AI problem. It is hard for the programmer to anticipate every situation and make the unit's act right.

In the game "route" covers a multitude of sins. From units merely refusing to continue going forward but instead fall back to their own lines to outright panic and running. Board games handled it very well with requirements that the player move them back to their own lines preferrably to the nearest covering terrain. What seems easy for a player to determine with a glance at the map is extremely difficult for the AI to do lacking eyes to take a glance with.

I have seen the AI handle it correctly holding the unit in place and other times just pass through whole enemy Corps trying to get away. But I fear any change that tries to correct one error in handling will add two more to replace it.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
1/1/III AoM (CSA)


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 11, 2009 12:00 pm 
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I know exactly what you are talking about. I had a 600 reb cav unit semi cornered and it routed and went behind my lines. Now I've got it roaming around in my rears. To make matters worse, i'm playing a very aggressive reb (I think he's Nathan Bedford Forrest reincarnated)and i'm sure he'll use that huge cav unit to it's full advantage.

Major Gen. Seger
I/VIII AoS


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