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 Post subject: If you think McClellan was bad ...
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:19 am 
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Posts: 873
Location: Somewhere between D.C. and the battlefield
... where faulty intelligence is concerned, consider British General Sir Redvers Buller, first C-in-C in the South African (Anglo-Boer) War. Apparently he thought he faced 120,000 Boer commandos in northern Natal in December 1899 when the real number was 8,500! McClellan never over-estimated enemy numbers fifteenfold.

Of course, unlike McClellan Buller did not take counsel of his fears. He boldly attacked those 120,000 Boers with 18,000 British regulars, only to suffer a bloody reverse at Colenso, losing 1,130 men to the enemy's 40.

One day I would like to write a book on history's most ignorant, or should we say, ill-informed generals. I figure McClellan would have some fierce competition. [:D]

<center>Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
[url="http://www.acwgc-usa.org/"]Image[/url]
<i>"... and keep moving on."</i>
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 4:41 am 
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Posts: 522
Location: Black Mountain, NC
I'm afraid I would also make that list.[:(]

MG D. Groce
AoP
V Corps
2nd Division
"beyond our ideas of right and wrong there is a field, I will meet you there"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:35 am 
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Location: USA
And Reverse Buller was head of Intelligence under Wood in Egypt!

Maj.Gen. Drex Ringbloom,
Commanding 2nd Div, "Corcoran's Legion", VIII Corps
Army of the Shenandoah
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:02 am 
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Hi, General,

Here is one for your book.

http://www.warof1812.ca/batdetroit.html

And here is a Civil War example.

http://www.encyclopediaofalabama.org/fa ... ?id=h-1380

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:20 pm 
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Location: H.Q. Army of Georgia ACWGC
For an interesting read along these lines, check out James M. Perry's <u>Arrogant Armies: Great Military Disasters and the Generals Behind Them</u>. The author presents eleven of history's worst, including Major General Sir George Pomeroy-Colley, another amazing story from the First Boer War. Lost three battles before a Boer rifle closed his OBD for good and command passed to Buller.

Col. J. Ellis
4/I AoG


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:26 pm 
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Location: USA
Afraid the CW would give them lots of company.

Pope for not noticing Longstreet on his flank.
Beauregard for not noticing McDowell on his flank.
Early for assuming he had won just because he chased off a few brigades of a force that out numbered him 3:1.
Bragg, for just being Bragg.[:D]

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
2/3/IV AoM (CSA)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:50 pm 
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Posts: 564
Location: USA
Hey! Who put my name up here!!!

Oh that would be me. hehehe....

MG Al "Ambushed" Amos, Commanding Officer
4th "Amos' Ambushers" Bde, 1st Div, XX Corps, AoC, USA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:33 pm 
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Location: Australia
So you were saying that, maybe Pinkerton was of some sort of use?! :D

LtC Stephen Trauth
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XV Corps/3rd Division [1st Cavalry] 2nd Cavalry Brigade

~Johnny don't surf.... I love the smell of phosphates in the morning... smells like... regularity.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:04 pm 
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Location: Somewhere between D.C. and the battlefield
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by prax</i>
<br />For an interesting read along these lines, check out James M. Perry's <u>Arrogant Armies: Great Military Disasters and the Generals Behind Them</u>.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Yeah. Unfortunately without footnotes. Author is a journalist I think.

<center>Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
[url="http://www.acwgc-usa.org/"]Image[/url]
<i>"... and keep moving on."</i>
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:08 pm 
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Sometimes underestimating is worse than overestimating! Witness Henry Halleck's belief that the Confederacy could never re-enforce Bragg's army in back of Chattanooga before Rosecrans could march to Atlanta!

Maj. Gen. Jos. C. Meyer
Commander, Army of the Tennessee
Union Army Chief of Staff
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:52 am 
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Location: USA
Ya know...I Like to dog Little Mac for being Ignorant...but some of the Blame for his Over-estimates land at the Feet of Pinkerton, as he's the one who told him there was a Rebel Army that had Twice his number on the Peninsula.............But it still comes back to, Mac believed his word without Question and did nothing to confirm Pinkerton's Reports......

Capt. Jason Fitch
commanding, 4th Bde
1st Div XV Corps
Army of the Tennessee

" At the end of forty-three minutes of a desperate and unequal contest, I found the enemy completely around my flanks. To prevent a useless destruction of life, or entire capture of my regiment, I gave the order to retire. I was Honored to be forced to repeat it, and even then the brave fellow complied reluctantly -- many refused" -- Colonel Bernard Mullen, commanding 35th Indiana Infantry, 1st Irish....Report of the Actions of the 35th on the Last Day at Stone's River


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:08 am 
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Kitchner comes to mind for me. [:(] But I have been reading a bit more about WWI lately too.

General Don Golen

1/1/V/AoP


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:51 am 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Fitch</i>
<br />
Ya know...I Like to dog Little Mac for being Ignorant...but some of the Blame for his Over-estimates land at the Feet of Pinkerton, as he's the one who told him there was a Rebel Army that had Twice his number on the Peninsula.............But it still comes back to, Mac believed his word without Question and did nothing to confirm Pinkerton's Reports......

Capt. Jason Fitch
commanding, 4th Bde
1st Div XV Corps
Army of the Tennessee
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I have seen some commentary to the affect that Pinkerton at the beginning gave very good estimates of troop strengths. He started inflating the numbers when he realized that is what McClellan wanted to see.

You also wonder how much McClellan believed the numbers since he made his movements in spite of the inflated numbers. It is almost like he was building his case for defeat to cover his ass if his plans didn't work out.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
2/3/IV AoM (CSA)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:22 am 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by KWhitehead</i>
<br />Afraid the CW would give them lots of company.

Pope for not noticing Longstreet on his flank.
Beauregard for not noticing McDowell on his flank.
Early for assuming he had won just because he chased off a few brigades of a force that out numbered him 3:1.
Bragg, for just being Bragg.[:D]

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
2/3/IV AoM (CSA)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

It's my understanding that Pope wasn't half bad and that it was his staff who inexplicably failed to keep him informed of Reb movements leading up to and during the battle.

Lt. Col. Bill Cirillo
3rd Brigade, 1st Div.
XX Corps, AoC, USA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 27, 2010 1:57 pm 
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Location: USA
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Net Warrior</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by KWhitehead</i>
<br />Afraid the CW would give them lots of company.

Pope for not noticing Longstreet on his flank.
Beauregard for not noticing McDowell on his flank.
Early for assuming he had won just because he chased off a few brigades of a force that out numbered him 3:1.
Bragg, for just being Bragg.[:D]

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
2/3/IV AoM (CSA)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

It's my understanding that Pope wasn't half bad and that it was his staff who inexplicably failed to keep him informed of Reb movements leading up to and during the battle.

Lt. Col. Bill Cirillo
3rd Brigade, 1st Div.
XX Corps, AoC, USA
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

If I remember correctly he knew of enemy on his left but assumed they were withdrawing not advancing. Bufford had reported Longstreet's movements around 9 am to McDowell. Pope for some reason assumed what was sighted was Jackson retreating. Then made the order for Porter to attack them which apparently was never sent.

Pope also poorly handled the troops he did control. Ordering a day long series of piecemeal attacks that exhausted his army. Pope at times did act with compentence but not at 2nd Manassas.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
2/3/IV AoM (CSA)


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