American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)
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Removing troops from the board
http://www.wargame.ch/board/acwgc/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=14732		 Page 2 of 3
Author:  Ernie Sands [ Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:35 pm ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Target1221</i>
<br />My own two cents is that the Club Rule is contrary to all common sense of warfare.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

THEN, in every game that you play, make sure your opponent agrees that units can be moved off without any penalty.

IMX, it is an infrequent event, anyway.

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands, General
4th Brigade, Cavalry Division, XIV Corps,
Army of Cumberland, USA
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ACWGC Records Site Administrator
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Author:  D.S. Walter [ Thu Mar 04, 2010 2:43 am ]
Post subject: 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Target1221</i>
<br />My own two cents is that the Club Rule is contrary to all common sense of warfare. If the game creators had not meant for units to be removed then they would not have allowed the option to remove them. In real war units are able to retreat from the field and are not restricted by boundaries. The game does not allow one to retreat off the board into water hexes or over creeks because in real life that is impossible. But it is possible to retreat over land away from the enemy. The edges of the board are meant to frame a field of battle and not create an inescapable box if one becomes trapped.
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The problem is that while you can remove your units, your opponent cannot follow in pursuit. If you remove units, you win a one-sided benefit--complete immunity from pursuit.

<center>Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
[url="http://www.acwgc-usa.org/"]Image[/url]
<i>"... and keep moving on."</i>
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Author:  Ernie Sands [ Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:33 am ]
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Another point about "house rules", from the Club rules:

"5.4 House Rules. Many officers prefer specific ‘house rules’ when they play. All house rules are optional and must be agreed to ahead of time by both players. The Club does not require that any optional rules (either house rules or those provided within the games) be used."

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands, General
4th Brigade, Cavalry Division, XIV Corps,
Army of Cumberland, USA
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ACWGC Records Site Administrator
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Author:  Jefferson H. Davis [ Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:38 am ]
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I think the problem of being able to smash a unit up against a map edge is a far bigger problem than being able to retreat off the board without further pursuit.....Both are limitaions of the game engine....

In FTW, you had better be willing to retreat off the board to save your mens lives, because you will likely need them later in the war.....Heck you'd likely get relieved of command for staying on the board and getting wiped out.....Public humiliation is rough....Of course there are no victory points to worry about either....

BG Hank Smith
Army of Georgia
Smith's Corp Commanding
Author:  D.S. Walter [ Mon Mar 08, 2010 4:53 am ]
Post subject: 
My usual compromise is that units may retreat over the board edge when they are not actually engaged with the enemy. But to slip away over a board edge out of a nearly complete encirclement doesn't strike me as very realistic.

In fact though with the huge maps of the HPS games I haven't actually encountered this problem in many years.

<center>Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
[url="http://www.acwgc-usa.org/"]Image[/url]
<i>"... and keep moving on."</i>
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</center>
Author:  Jefferson H. Davis [ Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:53 pm ]
Post subject: 
"My usual compromise is that units may retreat over the board edge when they are not actually engaged with the enemy. But to slip away over a board edge out of a nearly complete encirclement doesn't strike me as very realistic.

In fact though with the huge maps of the HPS games I haven't actually encountered this problem in many years."


I can understand how you feel there.....The fact is neither situation is realistic.....We just feel the opposite on which is the most important....

I have the solution though....It's simple.....All that has to happen is to have one tactical 125 yard per hex map for all scenarios....It should stretch from New England to California....That way it would cover any possibilities.....Heck while we are at it we should throw in Canada and Mexico in case there is foriegn intervention...or Confederate Raiders robbing New England towns.....Oooops then we need to add the Naval maps so we gotta have the Gulf of Mexico and the Atlantic on the map.......125 yard hexes...yep....thats it perfect...then there would be no map edges.....SOLVED!!!!!!!!!!!



BG Hank Smith
Army of Georgia
Smith's Corp Commanding
Author:  Al Amos [ Wed Mar 10, 2010 2:00 pm ]
Post subject: 
ummmm.... Hank, on your one map solution will I be able to load troops off the beaches, ala 'Dunkirk', then pull the ships off map to transport them back to safety? [:o)]

MG Al "Ambushed" Amos, Commanding Officer
1st Div, I Corps, AoP, USA
Author:  Jefferson H. Davis [ Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:15 pm ]
Post subject: 
Al you wouldn't have to move the ships "offmap" since the oceans would be part of the maps....just move them far enough off shore to get them out of range....Aw hell....let's just get HPS to do one big map of the entire globe....125 yard hexes....yep, thats the ticket.....

I'm considering making a map starting offshore from Fort Fisher and cape fear and going inland past Wilmington.....That will be a big one.....

I will say I have heard rumors (unsubstantiated of course) that an Eastern Theater map (Yes, the whole thing) may actually exist.....I'd love to have that one if it really does exist.....

That huge Atlanta map is pretty impresive, and this one would dwarf it......

BG Hank Smith
Army of Georgia
Smith's Corp Commanding
Author:  D. Groce [ Wed Mar 10, 2010 4:39 pm ]
Post subject: 
Al, be careful with the ships, remember the Hunley.

MG D. Groce
Commander
V Corps AoP
"beyond our ideas of right and wrong there is a field, I will meet you there"
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Author:  Al Amos [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:44 am ]
Post subject: 
THEY NAMED A SHIP AFTER ROGER! [:0]

MG Al "Ambushed" Amos, Commanding Officer
1st Div, I Corps, AoP, USA
Author:  Digglyda [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:33 am ]
Post subject: 
How about an agreed house rule that retreating units ...be they routed, disrupted or undisrupted ...may only exit the map on pike, road, path and rail hexes?

This would compromise and offer one side a way out and the other side a means to prevent escapes.

Brigadier-General Jim Wilkes.
2nd Brigade, Cavalry Division, XX Corps.
AoC. U.S.A.
Author:  Al Amos [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:42 am ]
Post subject: 
Any agreement is good, just do it before the game starts.

Armies did try to stay together so units would not just wander off on their own. Another comprimise could be only routed units can leave the map.

MG Al "Ambushed" Amos, Commanding Officer
1st Div, I Corps, AoP, USA
Author:  KWhitehead [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:03 pm ]
Post subject: 
The rule comes into play in two types of games:

Campaigns

Campaign scenarios are a special situation. Many are heavily unbalanced. Usually the Victory conditions will allow the player remaining a major victory or at least they should. But the losing player should have the option to remove his troops from a map where there is nothing they can accomplish but being wiped out. Good examples are the first few scenarios in the Vicksburg campaign. The best strategy for the Rebel player is to immediately put your troops in column and leave the field. In most cases this will give the Union player a major victory so VP loss in a problem. To have any chance in the later scenarios the Rebel player has to save these troops. So in campaigns the option to leave must be available. Whether you take or even need a Victory Level shift for it, should be arranged ahead of time.

Scenarios that standalone are quite different. Here the designer intended you to fight it out to the finish or offer a Major Victory to the other player. There is no reason to save the troops. If you got them backed up against a map edge it was your poor players or a very unbalanced scenario. The club house rules cover this situation very well.

LG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
2/3/IV AoM (CSA)
Author:  Ernie Sands [ Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:16 pm ]
Post subject: 
The club rules on this matter are explicit:

5.1.4 Withdrawal of all (or a substantial portion of) forces from the battlefield, unless specified in the scenario as a victory condition, will cost the withdrawing player a 2-step reduction in the level of victory. Removal from the map of individual units, routed behind enemy lines by the game engine, is allowed. (This rule is waived in the case of campaign scenarios.)



<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands, General
4th Brigade, Cavalry Division, XIV Corps,
Army of Cumberland, USA
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ACWGC Records Site Administrator
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Author:  Digglyda [ Fri Mar 12, 2010 2:06 am ]
Post subject: 
I have an opponent in a very tricky situation on HPS 2nd Bull Run (Historical) and he's had to e-mail me to raise this very subject.

He had Cavalry, mounted & dismounted, in the wooded terrain near the mapedge near the Reb reinforcement entry hex.
I've swung a flanking column hard up against the edge of the map there and with the help of my own Cavalry have sprung a very nasty trap early on Day 2.
He's now got half a dozen good quality Regiments all trapped and outnumbered and his ONLY option is to escape off the map through the couple of mapedge hexes he can still reach.
I support any opponent who wishes to exit the map under such circumstances.
I benefit directly because once removed, units have no means to return to the battle, so it makes my fight against his remaining force easier. "Soft" ZoC provides us with our means of effecting isolation kills and I think any units that can escape should use whatever means available to do so...so as long as the removal of units is done in the nature of a "retreat" and not as a "manuever".
I would never complain about an opponents "gameyness" in doing so simply because a mapedge itself is equally "gamey".
I'd rather see exiting units pay a victory point penalty based on a percentage of their remaining strength rather than incur a victory level drop as the rules currently demand.

I've seen many board war games that feature "off map boxes" to deal with exiting units and rules to cover it. Would it be feasible to add a optional rule to implement a penalty on exited units? ...a simple reversal of what we already have for getting off the map in exit hex scenarios.

Brigadier-General Jim Wilkes.
2nd Brigade, Cavalry Division, XX Corps.
AoC. U.S.A.
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