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Removing troops from the board
http://www.wargame.ch/board/acwgc/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=14732
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Author:  kfitzmaurice [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 3:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Removing troops from the board

What is the rule or past practice of removing troops from the board?

An opponent of mine has some units in trouble and wants to remove them. I told him first he has to move them to the edge of the map, wait until I engage them and then remove them. Removing troops is NOT a part of his victory conditions.

Is that correct??

It is a scenario in a campaign if that makes a difference.

Thank you in advance for the info.

Brig Gen Kyle FitzMaurice
4th Engineers, 2nd Inf Div, I Corp,
Army of Alabama
CSA

Author:  Drex [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:14 pm ]
Post subject: 

Unless you agree to let him do it without penalty, he suffers a 2 position shift to the negative if he removes troops from the map on a non-exit hex.

Maj.Gen. Drex Ringbloom,
AotS Chief-of -Staff,
2nd Division Cmdr, "Corcoran's Legion", VIII Corps
Army of the Shenandoah
Image

Author:  Dwight McBride [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 5:32 pm ]
Post subject: 

Removing units from the map is allowed in campaigns. It is not allowed in stand-alone scenarios, for which there is a penalty. See the Club Rules.

Your Obedient Servant,
Lt Gen Dwight McBride
Ist Division/1st Brigade
V Corps/AOP/USA

Author:  cameronm [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:03 pm ]
Post subject: 

As General McBride stated it is only allowed in campaigns, however the player must first march them to the edge of the map and then take them off, not just remove them because they are in trouble. He need not wait for you to engage them. It does pay to talk all these issues though prior to the start of any game - I am currently playing a battle where my opponent melees in column - we did not discuss it before hand, so I have to just take it - my fault not his

Major General Cam McOmish
Commander Western Theater
Confederate States of America
Image

Author:  Gary McClellan [ Tue Mar 02, 2010 6:56 pm ]
Post subject: 

The idea behind allowing them to be removed in a campaign is that losses carry over from battle to battle... so "escaping to fight again" is a valid tactic.



Major General Gary McClellan
Reserve Artillery
2/XV AoT USA

Author:  D. Groce [ Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:02 am ]
Post subject: 

I beleive the game engine requires unit to be on map edge before it will remove a unit.

MG D. Groce
Commander
V Corps AoP
"beyond our ideas of right and wrong there is a field, I will meet you there"
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Author:  Ian Coyle [ Wed Mar 03, 2010 3:56 am ]
Post subject: 

What about stand alone scenarios which are part of a tournament? I think that in 06C Wheat to Round Top the rebs should be allowed to withdraw. After all not much point in attacking and you end up fighting on your own map edge anyway.......

Maj Gen I Coyle
Army of Georgia

Author:  Al Amos [ Wed Mar 03, 2010 5:15 am ]
Post subject: 

General Coyle,

In a stand alone tournament game, I would think you should drop two levels of victory per the club rules for withdrawing troops to prevent their loss, ie not through an exit hex.

MG Al "Ambushed" Amos, Commanding Officer
1st Div, I Corps, AoP, USA

Author:  mihalik [ Wed Mar 03, 2010 7:33 am ]
Post subject: 

I like to avoid house rules whenever possible, and the rule where you can't retreat off the board without penalty is one of the originals. I believe it was formulated because in BG Shiloh some enterprising reb found he could beat up on Grant on the first day and then retreat off the board before Buell arrived, and there weren't enough victory hexes for the Yanks to possess to make up for the casualty differential. I think later on someone added a huge victory hex near the Reb edge of the board, which in my opinion was the better way to nullify the Reb strategy.

Board edges are artificial devices whose effects should be minimized by large maps and good scenario design. There is a Chickamauga scenario where all the troops enter the map, and a large number of Union troops can be trapped between the board edge and a river. That is an example of poor scenario design, in my opinion. I think if you center your objectives in the middle of a large enough map, removing units from the map shouldn't be a problem.

MG Mike Mihalik
2/4/I/AoMiss/CSA

Author:  A.Trommel [ Wed Mar 03, 2010 8:27 am ]
Post subject: 

Excuse me gentlemen, I recently joined and it was news to me that you can remove the units from the map if they are located by its edge.

Now I see by one of the replies in this thread that there is a penalty if this is done in standalone scenario. If this is the case you are basically between a rock and a hard place.

One, you can allow the opponent to corner the unit and batter into oblivion for points due to very non historic game rule. Two, you can remove the unit from the map and be penalized for it according to Club Rules.

I would rather take the penalty then, last time I checked the maps Virginia battlefields weren't cut with a ruler. Plus I am of the opinion that removal of a unit during the battle is a penalty, albeit light one, in itself.

"Motley Foreign Ranks"
5th Bde/1st Div/XVIth Corps, Army of the Tennessee, USA

Author:  Drex [ Wed Mar 03, 2010 9:18 am ]
Post subject: 

This rule was in place years before I joined the club so its been around without challenge. Personally, removing units is analogous with retreating from the field of battle which either means a tactical defeat or tactical retreat. I see no problem with it myself. In some scenarios I would rather leave the field than suffer great loss. In some cases, it is better to hit the enemy hard then run away.

Maj.Gen. Drex Ringbloom,
AotS Chief-of -Staff,
2nd Division Cmdr, "Corcoran's Legion", VIII Corps
Army of the Shenandoah
Image

Author:  S_Trauth [ Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:01 am ]
Post subject: 

I don't see any problem with the rule either; frankly using the "artificial edge" angle does work both ways, as the player that put you in the position is prevented from pursuit.

LtC Stephen Trauth
AOT
XV Corps/3rd Division [1st Cavalry] 2nd Cavalry Brigade

Author:  krmiller [ Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:54 am ]
Post subject: 

Gentlemen,

If you look at the club home page under the club rules for gaming you will find

5.1.4 Withdrawal of all (or a substantial portion of) forces from the battlefield, unless specified in the scenario as a victory condition, will cost the withdrawing player a 2-step reduction in the level of victory. Removal from the map of individual units, routed behind enemy lines by the game engine, is allowed. (This rule is waived in the case of campaign scenarios.)

These rules were in place when I joined the club in 2000 for the reason stated by Gen Mihalik, several of the BG scenarios gave the rebels an early advantage, if they were allowed to attack until their army was worn out then retreat off the map they could often build up a large enough casualty edge to prevent the union player from winning after his reinforcements came on.

The rule was amended when the HPS campaigns came out since it would often make sense to leave the field in a scenario to save your army for use later in the campaign.

As to individual units, the rule is clear that units that are cut off from your main army can leave the field. I once suffered a minor defeat in a BG Antietam scenario when my opponent retreated an isolated unit off the field. He offered to call the game a draw but I saw no problem with his action and we registered it as a minor victory for him.

Gen. Ken Miller
AoP

Image

Author:  kfitzmaurice [ Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:58 am ]
Post subject: 

Wow, this is the most responses I've ever gotten. Touched a nerve I guess.

Thanks for the info Gents!

Brig Gen Kyle FitzMaurice
4th Engineers, 2nd Inf Div, I Corp,
Army of Alabama
CSA

Author:  Blake [ Wed Mar 03, 2010 4:50 pm ]
Post subject: 

My own two cents is that the Club Rule is contrary to all common sense of warfare. If the game creators had not meant for units to be removed then they would not have allowed the option to remove them. In real war units are able to retreat from the field and are not restricted by boundaries. The game does not allow one to retreat off the board into water hexes or over creeks because in real life that is impossible. But it is possible to retreat over land away from the enemy. The edges of the board are meant to frame a field of battle and not create an inescapable box if one becomes trapped. The Civil War would have eneded quick-fast-and-in-a-hurry if McDowell had been confined to borders at First Manassas. Thus the rule should be amended to better reflect real war gaming.

Field Lt. B.L. Strickler
6th Bd/4th Div/IV Corps
AotM
"The Florida Brigade"

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