American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)

They held and now there are 2000 dead Rebs.[:D][:D][:D]

General Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
2/3/IV AoM (CSA)

Wow! What a wonderful battlefield. I may not be in the position I should be on it (Kennon is [;)]), but this is a very nice place to die.

MG Al "Ambushed" Amos, Commanding Officer
1st Div, I Corps, AoP, USA

http://albert-amos.blogspot.com/

We need to find a way to destroy Kennon. Drive him from the field of battle in defeat and disgrace. I'm about to try... [:)]

Brigadier-General Jim Wilkes.
2nd Brigade, Cavalry Division, XX Corps.
AoC. U.S.A.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Digglyda</i>
<br />We need to find a way to destroy Kennon. Drive him from the field of battle in defeat and disgrace. I'm about to try... [:)]

Brigadier-General Jim Wilkes.
2nd Brigade, Cavalry Division, XX Corps.
AoC. U.S.A.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Maybe, but I like fighting Kennon. I don't have to think too hard. [:)]

Afterall, I'm gonna lose so why give myself a useless headache for nuthin'? [:p]

MG Al "Ambushed" Amos, Commanding Officer
1st Div, I Corps, AoP, USA

http://albert-amos.blogspot.com/

I have yet to see Kenon lose ever....I suspect he has, but I am not aware of it.....The guy knows his stuff......

BG Hank Smith
Army of Georgia
Smith's Corp Commanding

<b>Gen. Amos Surrenders The ANV</b>

Gen. Amos after making a preliminary test of my defenses at dawn made an all out attack along the whole line at 6 AM. His left, North of Marsh Creek and Chambersburg Pike was a little slower joining since it was centered around Mummasburg and my I Corps line was further to the SE across the road but near the ridge line. This attack last a full three hours and involved every unit of the ANV except Johnson's division which was further to the left coving his flank and the road from Mummasburg to Hunterstown and of course Pickett.

My lines extended from the far left on the mountain overlooking Popular Spring Run and Little Marsh Creek, III Corps defending, along Little Marsh Creek with XII Corps defending, then on the ridge NW of Marsh Creek where Pender attacked earlier and held by XI Corps, to the center on Chambersburg Pike held by I/2 division, and finally the extreme right north of these held by I/3 and I/1 divisions. XI Corps was overlapped by XII's right and I/2's left to give it some backbone. It also had most of the artillery from all three Corps.

I had the advantage of good positions supported by artillery plus plenty of room to retreat in so I wouldn't have to fight toe to toe. The Rebel side had the advantage in numbers and quality. The attacker had 40,000 men in the line where contact was made against my 35,000.

I consider this an excellent test of quality versus position. The attacker out numbers the defender by 10% in every infantry and artillery. The average quality of the attacking forces is about 4.4 with all divisions 4 or greater. The defender has an average quality of 3.8 and includes one Corps that average 3.0.

At 9 AM when surrender was received the Rebel army had suffered 18,000 casualties to the Union's 9,000. A major portion of the remaining troops were at high or max fatigue levels. The ANV had been reduced to about 44,000 effectives. The Union army is at 80,000 with the VI Corps still arriving. At 9 AM I was already going back to the offensive. III Corps had attacked Hood on the Rebel extreme right taking 21 guns and breaking that division now down to less than 3,000 men. In XII Corps area I had the first of two divisions of the II Corps moving up to start driving Anderson back. Only on my right was I having problems since I/1 division was just about broken with Rodes still in good shape to continue the drive. However, I was shifting I/3 to help cover this area while I/2 moved over to help having defeated Hill by now. Also one division of the II Corps was going to be sent just in case. Meanwhile the V Corps was moving toward Mummasburg via the road through Hunterstown. With their arrival it would be the Confederate left in trouble.


General Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
2/3/IV AoM (CSA)

Kennom: what's the status of your game with Wilkes?

Maj.Gen. Drex Ringbloom,
AotS Chief-of -Staff,
2nd Division Cmdr, "Corcoran's Legion", VIII Corps
Army of the Shenandoah

Genl Whitehead's experience is entirely consistent with my experience with (then) Col Hebert.

The manpower advantage would be partially offset by positional (read -elevation) advantage -which averages about + 10%.

Also as an attack goes forward (and particularly if the attacker melees just a little too much), the quality advantage disappears with fatigue accrual.

Artillery, numbers are only a relative thing, in that type of artillery here (as well as location and ammo supply) is what is most relevant. In my experience the Union would be able to concentrate rifled pieces which, potentially, could be very effective at picking off CSA artillery pieces. Elevation is a key too, as when an assault goes forward, the height advantage to fire combat gets increasingly significant.

Finally I think the key is that it is very easy to burn an attack out quickly in the situation described, no matter a manpower advantage; it doesn't sound as large as on paper- based upon extenuating factors.

Excellent post (thread), Sir.

Col Stephen Trauth
AOT
XV Corps/3rd Division [1st Cavalry] 2nd Cavalry Brigade

From my limited experience with Gen. Wilkes I would venture that he is putting up quite a fight.<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Drex</i>
<br />Kennom: what's the status of your game with Wilkes?

Maj.Gen. Drex Ringbloom,
AotS Chief-of -Staff,
2nd Division Cmdr, "Corcoran's Legion", VIII Corps
Army of the Shenandoah




<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Lt. Gen. D. Groce
Commander
V Corps AotP
"beyond our ideas of right and wrong there is a field, I will meet you there"

From my limited experience with Gen. Wilkes I would venture that he is putting up quite a fight.<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Drex</i>
<br />Kennom: what's the status of your game with Wilkes?

Maj.Gen. Drex Ringbloom,
AotS Chief-of -Staff,
2nd Division Cmdr, "Corcoran's Legion", VIII Corps
Army of the Shenandoah




<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Lt. Gen. D. Groce
Commander
V Corps AotP
"beyond our ideas of right and wrong there is a field, I will meet you there"

Gen. Wilkes Battle

I haven't posted much on this because its in a repositioning phase and I was waiting for the new situation to settle. But it looks like I overlooked the early morning posting.

Dawn: 4-5 AM

My lines are formed well north of Gettysburg with the left on Oak Hill and the right on the hills controlling the Harrisburg Road. This is a temporary position mainly intended to buy me as much time before having to fall back on Cemetery Hill as possible. On the left I have the III Corps deploying on McPherson Ridge as it arrives. However, my cavalry controls most of the Chambersburg Pike so it isn't available to the Union.

At dawn McLaws tries to link up with the other two Union Corps by pushing down the Mummasburg Road. It overruns a cavalry regiment I had there but is delayed an hour. Meanwhile Hill pushes south across Oak Hill and Ewell with all the artillery apparently pushes south between Oak Hill and Rock Creek. Hill I spot and easily avoid while slowing down his move. Ewell gets me with his artillery on the first Daylight turn. Kills 400 men in one round which really smarts and speeds up my withdrawal to in front of Gettysburg. Hood starts trying to get down the Chambersburg Pike.

The area between Oak Ridge and Rock Creek is the perfect killing ground for my artillery. It has it in a cross fire from possitons on Seminary Ridge, along the pike, in Gettysburg, and in intrenched positions east of Gettysburg. I have pulled all of XI and I Corps into the low ground in front of the postion so the Rebel will have to approach very close before being able to even shoot. XII Corps has drawn back to form on the right. III Corps continues to reinforce itself west of Seminary Ridge to oppose Hood if he ever makes it.

Early Morning: 5-7 AM

Gen. Wilkes reconsiders his situation and decides to move his whole attack to my left against McPherson Ridge and the Seminary Ridge. McLaws leads the way by moving south from Mummasburg Road to take Chambersburg Pike and finally clear a path for Hood to join the war. Hill moves against the north end of McPherson Ridge and the railroad cut. Ewell shifts his whole Corps plus artillery to Oak Hill. I begin reorienting my army accordingly. III Corps shifts further to the left on McPherson Ridge. I and XI move to hold the upper part of McPherson Ridge and Seminary Ridge. XII Corps moves to cover northern side of Gettysburg and face Ewell.

Mid Morning: 7-9 AM

This is the offensives lead by Longstreet with most of Hill supporting to drive me east of Seminary Ridge. It starts with moves to take advance through Willoughby Run then take McPherson Ridge. I meet this with a delaying action again giving up ground from one defensive position to another. I have supporting artillery much not large amounts. I do farm one large gun concentration on the tip of Missionary Ridge near the where the Pike crosses to keep the Rebel from being able to use guns on the McPherson property near the railroad cut to drive me out of the valley in front of Semminary Ridge.

Gen. Wilkes drives my forces slowly back to Seminary Ridge actually taking the north end of my gun battery briefly before having to call off the attack. At about 9 AM the lead division of the II Corps deployes east of Sprangler wood and advances on his flank. Another division uses the roads to move even further around his flank heading for Black Horse Tavern. Unknown still to the Gen. Wilkes the Union V Corps is passing through Hunterstown headed for Mummasburg.

An additional 6,000 casualties are added to both sides.

Late Morning: 9 - Noon

Then begins the Rebel retreat as I try to move around both flanks. Eventually the main axis of that retreat becomes the Mummasburg Road. It is still in progress so I don't know what position it will form around. Most of the Confederate army is now spread out north of the Chambersburg Pike and west of the Mummasburg Road. With still large formations east of Marsh Creek where Mummasburg Road crosses the creek valley and ridge east of it. The V Corps beats them to Mummasburg and is froming a defensive position there waiting on XII Corps to link up with them.

There has been no major fighting since the Rebel army still out numbers me until V Corps joins the fight. Plus I don't want the Rebels to do to me what I have been doing to them. The Artillery Reserve is now closing up with my lines but really hasn't gotten close enough to the enemy to make themselves felt.



Regarding artillery, it isn't the advantage in long range guns that give the Union the edge in this early fighting. Actually Napoleons are better guns for defensive fighting. The problem is more that it is difficult for the attacker to use his guns effectively as long as the defender is locked into holding a particular position. Whenever the Reb artillery seems to be getting to effective I just pull my lines back. Also, since I have control of where I will fight I choose positions that will give my men cover or height advantage while leaving the enemy with only lower open terrain to place their men and guns.

With the Rebel retreat this has reversed. I am now the one trying to avoid getting shot to pieces while advancing. Since I can't force them to turn and fight I am not aggessively pursuing. The result is the casualties have run less than 200 per turn for this period.

General Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
2/3/IV AoM (CSA)

Update on Battle with Gen. Wilkes

I had a separate thread for this but it got archived so I will continue on this one.

The second day of the battle was rather anticlimatic. There was a brief attack against Seminary Ridge, which was held by the Union, around 9 AM. But by then the 2nd Corps was coming up on the Rebel right so they started retreating. The only thing unusual here was that it was toward the NW and Mummasburg. I had the V Corps moving around their flank toward Mummasburg as well. This lead to the only other stand up fight when the Rebels drove the V Corps back from Mummasburg to keep their retreat open.

By dark the Rebel army was all the way back to the large mountain west of Arendtsville (one of the CSA Objective Hexes). The Union lines surrounding it on three sides and the Union in pocession of Cashtown.

Casuaty wise the loses are still about equal but the Union is better able to absorb these loses:

CSA: 16,220 Inf, 2,037 Cav, and 16 Guns
USA: 15,152 Inf, 1,256 Cav, and 18 Guns

The third day will see the main effort by the Union to destroy the Rebel army if they don't retreat to the map corner.

General Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
2/3/IV AoM (CSA)

Relative Force Strengths on Day 2

The morning of the second day starts off with the Rebels having a decided advantage. While the Union II Corps is marching hard to reach the Gettysburg area it isn't going to arrive about 9 AM. Meanswhile the Rebels have received McLaws and Johnson's divisions late on day one and they have plenty of time to get into position near Gettysburg. Hood also comes in during the night but he like the 2nd Corps won't be a factor until late morning. These are the approximate forces at dawn that are useable:

USA: 35,000 Inf, 3100 Cav, 98 guns
CSA: 49,000 Inf, 1800 Cav, 181 guns

Things are actually worse than these number show for the Union since the infantry includes two III Corps brigades that are still moving to try to get to the battlefield. The Rebels also have twice the artillery as the Union. One of the few times they have superiority.

This advantage is short lived though because around 9 AM the Union II Corps will start deploying and for the Rebs Hood will show up. This brings the forces too:

USA: 48,000 Inf, 3700 Cav, 122 guns
CSA: 55,000 Inf, 1800 Cav, 200 Guns

Still the CSA has an advantage but the Union being on defensive can usually cancel it out. If the Rebels have been successful on the previous day and morning though, they can still drive the Union back throughout the rest of the morning.

But by about noon things swing the other way with the arrival of the Union V Corps and the Artillery Reserve. Unless the Rebels have been very successful from now on they have to tread carefully. The relative forces after noon are:

USA: 65,000 Inf, 4400 Cav, 284 Guns
CSA: 55,000 Inf, 1800 Cav, 234 Guns

The Union now has a significant advantage. Some of the troops are still in transit so they usually build up to these number over the afternoon. Also, during the late afternoon the Cavalry for both sides start building up. However, the Union has the advantage here since Stuart gets two brigades and the Union gets two divisions.

The next big change occurs when the Union VI Corps start reaching the Gettysburg area toward late evening or dusk. The Rebels get Pickett but he is no match for this Corps. Except for some cavalry that comes in for both sides on Day 3, both sides have the forces they will have to fight the remainder of the battle with about dusk. These are:

USA: 78,000 Inf, 11,400 Cav, 323 Guns
CSA: 62,500 Inf, 7,400 Cav, 260 Guns



General Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
2/3/IV AoM (CSA)

Cavalry Comparison

On the second day both sides receive most of their cavalry so I thought it was a good time to see how they compare. The basic numbers are:

Stuart's Division
2050 4.9 Hampton
2100 5.3 F. Lee
1450 4.6 W. Lee
1150 2.8 Jenkins
1900 5.2 Jones
1125 3.0 Robertson
Totals: 9,775 cavalry with average quality of 4.5

Union Cavalry Corps
575 4.0 HQ
4425 4.3 1st Div
2925 4.9 2nd Div
3925 3.8 3rd Div
Totals: 11,850 cavalry with average quality of 4.3

At first glance they look just about the same quality wise with the Union out numbering Stuart by 20%. Unfortunately for the Rebels it is far worse that that on the second day when most of the critical cavalry fights occur. On the third day the cavalry tends to back off as the Rebels go on the defensive but sometimes that isn't always true.

Things that shift things against the South:

First the Union gets over 1000 cavalry in the form of Provost and HQ detachments. This means they have plenty of cavalry to cover flanks and rear while the main body of cavalry fights. The Rebels usually have to use Jones two detached regiments and Jenkins for this duty on day two.

Second two of the Rebel brigades, Robertson and Jones fine brigade, don't come in until the morning of day three. This leaves Stuart short 3,000 men compared to the Union who is missing only one brigade of 1600.

This makes the Day 2 useable forces:

USA: 10,200 (not counting Provost and HQ cavalry)
CSA: 6,800 (includes Jenkins but not Jones)

Now the odds are close to 1.5 to 1 with essentially equal quality. Things don't go well for Stuart if he gets caught by the whole Union Cavalry Corps.

Then there is the weapon advantage. Stuart's forces have a lot of pistol armed men in it. They are fine as long as they can stay mounted but if he needs to hold a position with dismounted troops he is in trouble. The Union cavalry with there carbines are formanable.

The Union also has a significant advantage if you are playing Turn based. In Turn based the cavalry has the ability to move up close, dismount, and then move adjacent so they can fire. Stuart's mounted cavalry are no match for this technigue and are quickly ripped appart by the repeaters.

General Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
2/3/IV AoM (CSA)

Hee Hee, ask Col. Hebert about our match on Day 1 at Gettysburg and the efficacy of using Buford against Rebel Infantry....

Col. Nick DeStefano
IV "Wolf-Pack" Corps, AoM