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 Post subject: Routing unit actions
PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:39 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2001 1:45 pm
Posts: 170
Location: USA
In a current game a unit routed away from their lines to behind the enemy lines and ended up adjacent to an unescorted leader. The routed unit then moved and captured the leader during the turn. I have always felt that routed units should do no more than attempt to return to their lines if possible or to just hide until rallied. I also know that some will say if the engine allows it it is ok. I would like to get some feed back if anyone is interested.

Lt General Jon Thayer
2/3/III
Army of Northern Virginia

jonathanthayer@bellsouth.net


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:54 am 
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Ideally they would always route the correct direction, back to their own lines and covering terrain, or surrender failing that. But what is obvious to the human eye can be really difficult for a computer program. It isn't that the game engine allows it, it just isn't "smart" enough to not allow it.

I haven't ever seen a routed unit capture a leader but have never tried it either. If it can than that looks like a good candidate for a HPS patch. Routed units shouldn't be able to do anything of value.

General Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
2/3/IV AoM (CSA)


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 9:47 am 
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Hi Jon!

My own take on any unit and how it acts during a Game, is to visualise the situation and ask - would this happen in real Life.

So applying my logic to the example given would follow this path:

A lone Officer, is like any Man 'lost' or travelling solo on a Battlefield. A group of the Enemy, whether in Good Order, Disrupted or Routed, coming across a single, <i>armed </i>Enemy soldier, will not risk leaving Him to his own devices . . they will more likely than not, either kill or capture Him. So firstly Jon, the capture of the Officer was/is a valid occurence - according to my personal book.

However, the crossing of Enemy Lines, by a Routed Unit . . . is a vagary of the Game Engine's programming. If I understand the Engine correctly, the following logic is hard-wired into the program.

1. The Unit Routs.
2. The Computer calculates the <u>maximum </u>distance the Unit is to/can travel during the Routing 'movement'. (Movement Pts.)
3. The Computer calculates the Unit's movement to follow a 'line of least resistance' regarding the surrounding Terrain.
4. The Computer/Engine determines whether the Unit has Line of Sight to friendly Units and/or Enemy units.

Now . . I stand to be corrected here Jon, but, if the Computer follows the above logic and discovers that the Routed Unit can move further from it's 'unsafe' position, by moving thru' or past the Enemy Lines, then that's where it moves the Unit to!

In Real Life:

Would a routed Unit cross an impassable Creek or climb an unscaleable cliff? No.

Or indeed - would They leap off that cliff? Probably not - (<font size="2">although that would depend on their level of panic</font id="size2">).

Would a routed Unit run off the Map? Yes.

Would a routed Unit run towards the Enemy in Real Life? No. . . . unless ALL other avenues of possible escape were denied to them. (<font size="2">AND also, whether They had LoS to Enemy Units, thus knowing that to 'run over there' was taking them into the waiting arms of the Enemy.</font id="size2">)

I would think that this vagary is caused by the programming of the Game, where a Routed Unit follows a given set of Rules laid out in the program, yet whilst every effort has been expended to ensure that these Routing Rules are adhered to by the Routing Unit, it's Sod's Law . . . . . if there's any way that it can go wrong . . . then at least part of the time - it will! [:p]

Can it be fixed? Probably, but only with a re-examination of the Engine's logic and (I would imagine) an extended and complicated re-vamp of the Routing subsection of the Program.

A simpler 'fix' would appear to be encapsulated in Your initial post Jon - which I (altho' totally at sea regarding Programming) feel could be achieved . . . that is:

The Routing Rules section of the program calculates movement as stands, BUT if it finds that the only way available for the routed Unit to 'complete' it's move, to the maximum movement pts available, is to move in the direction of the Enemy . . . then the Unit Routs and remains rooted to the spot!!! [:D]

Pat.

Patrick G.M.Carroll,
Lieutenant General.
Kilcullen Irregulars
II Corps
Army of Georgia Rtd.

" When My Country takes it's rightful place, amongst the Nations of the World, then and only then, let My Epitaph be written. "


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:53 am 
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I understand and accept that with regard to the path that routed units follow, at times they will follow what would be considered illogical routes. But my question goes more along the line of what can routed units do. The game played is one of the Chancellersville games. For the Rebs all their units are listed as reinforcements on turn one and then they arrive at ramdom. Every division commander, as well as Stonewall has entered the map unaccompanied by any troops. The officer in question was moving toward his command and was behind an established "front" protected from enemy action by ZOCs and 4 hexes of woods which is a greater distance than a unit can move. So should a routed unit which gains an advantage due to a known irregularity with the routing path of retreat use that advantage?

Lt General Jon Thayer
2/3/III
Army of Northern Virginia

jonathanthayer@bellsouth.net


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 5:25 pm 
I lost Nathan bedford Forest that way once....lol....Good post Jon, something to be looked at for sure......

BG Hank Smith
Army of Georgia
Smith's Corp Commanding


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 5:09 am 
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Hi Jon!

Apologies if I appeared to 'talk down' to Ye in my last contribution . . . I wished to outline my understanding of the movements of Routed Units and never meant to infer that You were lacking in your understanding of this aspect of the Game. [:D]

That said . . . I think I covered part of Your 'True' question with regard to what a Routed Unit can/cannot do and why. A group of soldiers whether panicked or not, are invariably going to capture a lone Officer - if possible. Therefore I personally have no problem with such a capture.

However, the main problm - in my eyes at least - is that this Routed Unit ended up in a position to make the capture, by 'unfair' means. That these means are an integral part and possible error in the code of the Game Engine, is the main matter to debate . . that, and whether there are any options available to remedy the situation.

Firstly, there is the possibility of a Gentleman's agreement not to capture Officers with Routed Units. However, this has to be agreed at the beginning of the Battle and mention of such an agreement will inevitably be forgotten - at least some of the time.

Secondly, a proposal could be made - (I'm not sure whether to the CoA's or to Cabinet), to include a forbiddence of such captures as a 'Standing Order', similar to the Club Rule forbidding the use of Wagons, Lone Officers and Routed Units, to cut off any means of escape from ZoC's and/or isolation of Units in an unsportsmanlike manner.

The third option would be to introduce - within the programming of the Game - code, precluding Routed Units from making captures. Personally speaking, I would not be in favour of this. I believe that in Real Life - Routed Units would take Prisoners.

The Final option would be Bill Peters' suggestion of displacing a Lone Officer in such a situation. Again, I personally would not be in favour of this, for the same reason.

HOWEVER, the last 2 options would appear to be the quickest 'fix' available, <u><i>unless </i></u> this practice is outlawed within the Club's Standing Orders and Code of Conduct.

The main concern - I would feel - would be a fix for the errant breach of 'normal' routing rules, carried out by the program itself in these situations. In one of my current Battles, I have 3 routed units, hemmed in a corner of the Map, in such a way that they cannot move out of their current hexes, even tho' they are quite close to their Own Line.

I only wish that They could follow the Program's current 'Emergency Rules' . . . and rout "over" the Yankee Units nearby and into the CSA Lines . . . at least then, I'd have a fighting chance to save them from capture!!! [xx(]

Regards,

Pat.

Patrick G.M.Carroll,
Lieutenant General.
Kilcullen Irregulars
II Corps
Army of Georgia Rtd.

" When My Country takes it's rightful place, amongst the Nations of the World, then and only then, let My Epitaph be written. "


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 9:11 am 
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I think that a very simple solution but one that would fall into the area of "house rules" to be agreed upon at the beginning of a game would be to simply restrict any unit that routs behind the opponents lines to no action at all. They must just sit where they are until the end of the game or their opponent wishes to expend the effort to eliminate it. We should keep in mind that routing is a bad thing to have happen and the results of this rout should be bad. A unit routing behind enemy lines can in effect be a good thing for the side that has the routing unit and this should just never be the case.

Lt General Jon Thayer
2/3/III
Army of Northern Virginia

jonathanthayer@bellsouth.net


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:26 am 
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Jon.

I am currently working on a proposal, which when completed, I intend to forward to the Cabinet or someone suitable, with a view to requesting a programming change concerning Officer captures.

I believe that it will have a bearing on some of Your problem. If You or any other member of the Club would like to contribute towards this proposal, please send Me a courier and we'll try to thrash out a proposal that encompasses all the difficulties/angles covered so far within this post and my other post - <u>A Question of Nuance</u>.

http://www.wargame.ch/board/acw/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15132

I'd be delighted to hear any opinions on the matter and m'be we can put something together, as an 'In-Game' Optional Rule, which suits us all? [:D]

Pat.

Patrick G.M.Carroll,
Lieutenant General.
Kilcullen Irregulars
II Corps
Army of Georgia Rtd.

" When My Country takes it's rightful place, amongst the Nations of the World, then and only then, let My Epitaph be written. "


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