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 Post subject: Larry Quick and Websites
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:00 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 12:44 pm
Posts: 1200
Location: USA
Several folks, not sure who did or did not, got an email from Larry Quick today, and as you can notice, he's shut down his website support, which is absolutely his prerogative to do. This will be my simple attempt to give you some FACTS. It's not to bash anyone, you can read the real words and decide things on your own.

Larry was kicked out of the Club somewhere in the 2004/2005 timeframe, for telling some folks to "f**k off" on the boards, among other things. He was reinstated by Cabinet some time later (several months, as memory serves).

Larry was disciplined by Cabinet during late 2007.

Larry first resigned from his short Cabinet stint in January of 2008.

He next resigned from CSA duties in May of 2008 (resignation below).

Shortly after, he resigned from the Club (resignation below).

Cabinet voted unanimously to remove Larry from the Club, with the sole purpose of requiring his reinstatement to come before the Cabinet to rejoin, as per Rule (motion below).

As the individual who wrote the motion, I never gave a thought to Larry maintaining his websites as a reason not to inform him. It was simply as the motion stated - I wanted it clear that we (Cabinet) weren't out to rub salt in his wounds or continue the fight. He had already informed us that he was discontinuing Union website support, which would have been the websites I was concerned with, so it just doesn't add up.

Larry applied for reinstatement in December of 2009, and was informed of all of this. (records below)

There is obviously a ton of stuff related to this whole story. Going into it would not be proper, and we shouldn't want to drag any one individual through the mud. This Club is founded on principles of respect and honor. However, I could go point by point through Larry's email, and point out where the facts do not support his assertions, and provide emails to back them up.

I, too, would urge calm and understanding.

Now, this is just opinion, but I believe the facts will bear it out. Much of Larry’s disgruntlement (prior to resigning and getting kicked out of the Club the second time) with Cabinet had to do with access to the code of the Department of Records. He wanted unfettered access to the database itself, rather than the access to the reports we all have. Anyone can get at the data by running the reports – that’s one of the beauties of it. But Larry wanted to touch the database. His purpose, as he stated, was to simplify web site maintenance duties. I believe him. He was denied access because of his history of disruption within the Club, and the fact that he tends to hold his sites and services hostage to get his way, rather than recognize the democratic governance of the Club. These are documented facts, if you’ve been around long enough – I’ve got the emails from Larry to show it. Larry could have, with his skills, potentially denied access to the DoR or shut it down, exactly as he has done again today with his websites. Again, he has a history of this behavior. So the gist of the matter – Larry wanted access to the code, the Cabinet denied it to him.

(Side note - 3 folks have access to that code - Don Adams, Ernie Sands, and the sitting Club President. There is a process for archiving a back-up of the database.)

This is certainly not the only issue Larry has had within the Club, there are several more. But I believe this is the one that started the chain of events 2 years ago. He tried threats, boycotts, name calling, election tampering to get a majority on Cabinet, you name it. Ultimately, he quit the Club, hoping that would rally people to his cause. Now, I believe he’s trying this latest gambit of shutting down website support to gain attention.

The loss of the websites is tough, but imagine if Larry had access to the DoR code and shut down our ability to record games, promotions, etc?! That is why the Cabinet stood it’s ground with Larry. It is certainly why I wrote and submitted the motion for his removal. This Club belongs to all of us, collectively, with a set of Rules and Leadership to guide us. It’s a great Club, one of the best you’ll find. Not without flaws or ways to improve it, but one that DOES have a way to improve it, and one where people have a voice. No one person should be able to ruin that, no matter how gifted they are with websites. Larry has given a lot to this hobby and Club, I wouldn’t deny that (search the archives of this board for Laub and Notso, and you'll find several posts where I thanked and recognized Larry for his outstanding support). A lot of others have done the same, and continue to do so now - I am grateful to all of them, including Larry. As you can see with the Cabinet letter ( I authored it as well) copied at the bottom when Larry asked for his reinstatement back in Dec 2009, I tried to point out the happy medium that had been achieved for the previous 19 months. The drama just isn’t worth it.

That remains true now. Colonel Strickler put it well in the WTF???? Post – time to move forward for everyone. Larry has always tried to divide, and this could be another attempt to do just that. If we fight and argue, pick sides, you name it, we won't get anywhere productive. We've got a great Club, give folks a chance to get things corrected (note it's WAY easier to take something down than to get it back up again). Let's stay focused on that.


I’ll post below some of the supporting documentation referenced.


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General Jeff Laub
Eastern Theater, Commanding
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 1:01 pm 
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Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 12:44 pm
Posts: 1200
Location: USA
Here is a copy of Larry's resignation from his CSA duties:
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">

----- Original Message -----
From: Larry (Notso) Quick
To: TheGrayFoxCSA@msn.com ; John Newton ; jaxgreys@comcast.net ; Bob Weir ; Nick Kunz ; Bob Weir ; Tony Malone ; Paul Smith ; Scott Ludwig
Cc: Bill Keys ; Mike Burdulis ; Alvin Baker
Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2008 7:23 PM
Subject: A heavy heart


Gentlemen,

It is with heavy heart that I provide the following:

Gen. Tisdale, CSA, Commanding - I resign my position as CSA Department of Engineering, Commanding
Gen. Newton, VMI, Commanding - I resign my position as VMI Chief of Engineers
Gen. Stewart, ANV Commanding - I resign my position as both the VMI Chief of Staff and Commander of Jackson's Corps.
Gen. Kunz, CSA Eastern Theater, Commanding - I resign as CSA Eastern Theater website coordinator.
Gen. Paul Smith, AoG, Commanding - I resign as AoG website coordinator.
Gen. Malone, AotM Commanding - I resign as AotM Muster Coordinator

I also am resigning from all of my Yankee engineering/website positions but I do not have the heart to tell them. I will leave it up to you gentlemen to figure out the best way to handle this most unfortunate situation. And yes ... it is most unfortunate. And worse yet ... unavoidable.

I will still remain as ACWGC.ORG owner and coordinator. I will die before it goes anywhere.

Although I am resigning my club positions, you can rest assured that I will do everything I can to ensure that every club system remains as examples of what can be accomplished when a group of like minded individuals come together for the betterment of others.

All the the websites will continue to run as will as all the systems. I will be here to help anyone who asks for my help.

I think it is time that I concentrate my efforts on doing something that I have been wanting to do for about 4 years now but have been unable to do due to my club commitments. I am going to go play a few games. Do you hear that Gen. Moose? It is time for us to go have some Fun!!! Come on boy ... let go kick some Yankee butt.

Notso
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Here is Larry's resignation from the Club just 2 days later:

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">----- Original Message -----
From: Larry (Notso) Quick
To: 'Willie Tisdale'
Cc: Ed Stewart
Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2008 12:36 PM


Gen. Tisdale, Suh <salute>

I, Brig. Gen. Larry Quick, CSA Serial # CSALQ1065, do hereby tender my resignation from the Confederate Armies.

A duly sworn copy is sent to my immediate superior.

Respectully submitted,

Brig. Gen. Larry Quick
ANV
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Here is a copy of the motion for Larry Quick to be removed from the Club, for the sole purpose of requiring his reinstatement to come before the Cabinet

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Jeffrey Laub <jdlaub@msn.com> wrote:
I move that Larry Quick be expelled from the American Civil War Gaming Club, effective immediately. Despite Larry's sudden resignation (I had typed this up yesterday, but was waiting to try and get files from his servers before doing so.) I still think this is a necessary step. Larry has a history of trying to quit in the midst of trouble, possibly hoping the consequences of that trouble go away, only to come back at things later. As per Rule:

2.6.4 Reinstatement. Officers who have been involuntarily removed from the Club, declared MIA, or voluntarily resigned their commission may request to be reinstated to the Club. Such requests should be made to the CoA of the military group in which the returning officer served when he left. Members who were involuntarily removed will have their cases reviewed by the Cabinet on a case by case basis, with the Cabinet making the final determination. The returning member may be reinstated at his past rank and points or he may be required or elect to start over, determined by the respective CoA. If electing not to go through training again the member will be given 15 points and start at the rank of Second Lieutenant.

Larry could rejoin at his previous rank with CoA approval. By taking this action, we are essentially ensuring that IF Larry were to want to rejoin, it would come before the Cabinet for review. Given the amount of time and trouble the Cabinet has had with Larry over the years, I think it's appropriate to give that decision into the Cabinets hands.

As part of this motion, I would also include a requirement that this NOT be a publicly disclosed item, as is our practice and precedent in cases involving sensitive natures particular to an individual. The intent is not to drag anyone through the mud. It would not need to be enacted unless Larry attempted to rejoin at some point. We'd then inform him that this action was taken at this time, and that his reinstatement was a Cabinet decision.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Larry's reinstatement, and response:
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">From: Larry (Notso) Quick <notso1@erols.com>
To: TheGrayFoxCSA@msn.com
Cc: Roger Hulinsky <husker6101@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wed, December 23, 2009 11:46:48 AM
Subject:


Commander of the Armies
Confederate States of America

Gen. Willie Tisdale, Suh

<Salute>

With your permission suh, I would like to rejoin the club at my previous rank.

And if approved, I would like to request assignment to the Army of the Mississippi.

Ouch!!! Darn it Gen. Moose! What was that for? If I have told you once, I have told you a million times. DO NOT kick me is the shins. Darn it boy ... it hurts!!!

OK boy. Now that you have my attention, what is it that you want this time? Yes ... yes. Ok boy. You are absolutely correct ... as usual.

Gen. Tisdale Suh. Gen. Moose has reminded me that I have forgotten my manners. And for that suh I am sincerely apologize.

Merry Christmas to you and you loved ones at this very special time of the year.

Respectfully submitted,

Brig. Gen. Larry Quick and Gen. Horatio Moose

P.S. Yes suh it is sad to say. The moose comes with me. LOL!!!!!

CC: Gen. Roger Hulinsky, Commanding Officer, Army of the Mississippi<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Larry,

This is being sent on behalf of the entire Cabinet.

Here are the basic facts of your dismissal from the Club. It's probably no surprise to you, but I was the one who put forward the motion to ensure that under Rule 2.6.4 (attached), your reinstatement would come before Cabinet for review, rather than just to a CoA. The motion also specified that we would do two things, as you will be able to see in the attachement:

First, make no public announcement of this decision, as is our practice regarding anything at Cabinet with regard to a specific individual, out of respect for those individuals.

Secondly, to not notify you, since you had already decided to leave. There was no desire to "rub it in your face", so to speak. It would only come up if you wanted to rejoin at some point.

The basis for the motion and taking this action were your emails. I didn't have to make any arguments, just provided the facts of your written statements. These were always your choices, and your choices led to your own set of consequences.

The motion is attached, and copied below. It carried unanimously.

Again, we have handled this as a private matter - just as we always have.

Seems you've enjoyed what you've been doing for the past 19 months, and have a good relationship with people within the Club via your hosting and technical expertise at acwgc.org. It has worked well for you, and obviously for them. Take satisfaction and enjoyment from that. It keeps you out of where you get into trouble, and still keeps you involved in hobbies that you seem to truly enjoy. All this other BS just doesn't seem worth it. You never played many games, and can still play games all you want. Rank and points aren't worth squat, it's about having fun and enjoying a hobby. You've done that for the past 19 months, don't get derailed from that. You didn't do the work you did or forge the friendships you have because of a desire to get back into the Club. You did that stuff because it's what you're good at and what you enjoy doing. Stick to that, it suits you well, and that is intended as a compliment.

This is all the Cabinet has to say on this subject.

Regards,

General Jeff Laub
Union Chief of the Army

ACWGC Cabinet - Generals Mallory, Tisdale, Weir, Nelms, Sands, Walter<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">


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General Jeff Laub
Eastern Theater, Commanding
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:31 pm 
General laub,

I cannot stand by and allow you to leave out FACTS that change the entire truth of the matter.

Fact 1: At the time the DOR was malfunctioning Don Adams was unavailable to fix it.

Fact 2: Neither Sands nor Mallory were competent to fix it.

Fact 3: Larry Quick was the only available competent person to fix it.

Fact 4: He asked for access only in order to do so and was turned down.

Fact 5: He then offered a compromise of either looking at screenshots of the code, or working on a copy of the code, which would have allowed him to figure out the specific problem and fix, so that he could have instructed a non competent person (Ernie in this case) exactly how to fix the site. This would not have given him any access to the site whatsoever.

Fact 6: Despite offering to help without access, this offer was completely ingnored, and never even responded to.

Fact 7: The site continued to malfunction until Don Adams eventually reappeared and fixed it months later. (Thanks to Don)

Now I'll just ask how you would feel if slapped accross the face like that......It was extremely insulting.


"So the gist of the matter – Larry wanted access to the code, the Cabinet denied it to him."

The truth is that Larry simply wished to fix the DOR for the good of the club (yes that would usually entail access the code), but no matter what assurances or offers were made by Larry, the cabinet chose not to trust Larry and turned down all offers, even those that did not include access to the code. To this day, the cabinet claims this was about Larry having access, when for Larry that was NEVER the issue. He just wanted to help.

Did Larry believe that officers from both sides should have access to the site? Yes absolutely. At that time, the DOR was controlled only by Ernie. Several Reb officers asked for access and were denied. That has apparently since been corrected in that today I read that general mallory now has access. I do not believe that he did at the time, and Don was gone. Ernie was the only person with access at that time. He is no spring chicken from what I hear....What if something had happened to him??? But the fact is that these are 2 entirely different issues (One of access in general and the other of the repair). You treated them as one when they were not, and you did Larry a great wrong. You should apologize.


"The loss of the websites is tough, but imagine if Larry had access to the DoR code and shut down our ability to record games, promotions, etc?!"


This has been your argument all along, but you ingore the inescapable fact that he was willing to assist and instruct on how to fix the site WITHOUT access. Therefore your statement has utterly no basis in fact period.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

" Larry,

This is being sent on behalf of the entire Cabinet.

Here are the basic facts of your dismissal from the Club. It's probably no surprise to you, but I was the one who put forward the motion to ensure that under Rule 2.6.4 (attached), your reinstatement would come before Cabinet for review, rather than just to a CoA. The motion also specified that we would do two things, as you will be able to see in the attachement:

First, make no public announcement of this decision, as is our practice regarding anything at Cabinet with regard to a specific individual, out of respect for those individuals.

Secondly, to not notify you, since you had already decided to leave. There was no desire to "rub it in your face", so to speak. It would only come up if you wanted to rejoin at some point.

The basis for the motion and taking this action were your emails. I didn't have to make any arguments, just provided the facts of your written statements. These were always your choices, and your choices led to your own set of consequences.

The motion is attached, and copied below. It carried unanimously.

Again, we have handled this as a private matter - just as we always have.

Seems you've enjoyed what you've been doing for the past 19 months, and have a good relationship with people within the Club via your hosting and technical expertise at acwgc.org. It has worked well for you, and obviously for them. Take satisfaction and enjoyment from that. It keeps you out of where you get into trouble, and still keeps you involved in hobbies that you seem to truly enjoy. All this other BS just doesn't seem worth it. You never played many games, and can still play games all you want. Rank and points aren't worth squat, it's about having fun and enjoying a hobby. You've done that for the past 19 months, don't get derailed from that. You didn't do the work you did or forge the friendships you have because of a desire to get back into the Club. You did that stuff because it's what you're good at and what you enjoy doing. Stick to that, it suits you well, and that is intended as a compliment.

This is all the Cabinet has to say on this subject.

Regards,

General Jeff Laub
Union Chief of the Army"


As for his dismissal, without debating whether it was or was not hustified, the act of not informing him was utterly unconscionable considering the fact that he was in fact supporting the club at his own expense.

I was recently told by a cabinet member that since he had already resigned it was "not neccessary". Well in order to expel him, he had to be a member so you refused his resignation and then expelled him. You can't have it both ways, if his resignation was refused, then he WAS a member and it was neccessary. If he was not a member then his expulsion was invalid.

I will now call your attention to to the paragragh of your letter that begins " Seems you've enjoyed what you've been doing for the past 19 months".

When I read that "advice" it seems to me to be awfully self serving advice. In view of that I do question the motive of not informing him that he was expelled. The truth seems obvious to me.

---------------------------------------------------------------------


As for this latest series of events which has ended in Larry pulling the sites. You started the entire chain of events when you used his name in an earlier thread. I was careful not to do so and when you did, larry was quite upset about it. He after a few days decided to withdraw his personel support of the sites. He was NOT going to pull sites that were maintained by 5 of his friends (This was the majority of the sites now pulled). Somehow, General Tisdale got a copy of Larry's private email and apparently misinterpreted what larry was going to do. He sent out an email to a group of club members that someone forwarded to Larry.

In that email, General Tisdale greatly offended Larry with the things he said. Larry was also dissappointed that his private email was shared and then and only then decided to pull all club sites that he hosted.

This is likely for the best as once and for all the situation is completely over. It is a shame it came out this way. Larry cared a great deal for this club. he made his share of mistakes, but the fact is that the leadership of this club has made many themselves and then covered them up with "official versions" of the story that do not include important facts, such as what you have read from general laub on this thread.

Larry's nature is such that he would forgive just about anybody, for most anything if he believed them sincere. I think he would just have liked to have been forgiven himself.
=====================================================================

I will say that I have no desire to see the club deteriorate, or even be damaged long term by these events (short term damage is already done). The club has many good persons, and I hope in the end it comes out stronger. That is up to the membership.

Now I will address the future for myself. I expect to be disiplined for this post, if not expelled. I expect that this post may dissappear due to cencorship of an opposing point of view. I do not believe that I have been disrespectful to any of the leadership of the club or anyone else for that matter. I will not resign from the club. If you see me "dissappear" you will know what happened. I would hope that is not to be the case, but only time will tell. If I am expelled, I will know that I have been right in every critical thing I have ever posted.

I am not suggesting that anyone resign. I am not trying to cause trouble, but I could not stand by and see my friend and a long time supporter of this club essentially slandered.

I had to speak out....

IF this is my farwwell post then Goodbye to those of you I have called friends, and so be it. This entire "years long affair" has truly been a regrettable shame.




BG Hank Smith
Army of Georgia
Smith's Corp Commanding


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 3:51 pm 
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Posts: 335
Location: USA
I would like to see the ACWGC work through all of these issues in a mature, reasonable manner.

One of the things I will say in sermons from time to time is that there are "three sides to every story. My side, your side and the truth, and none of the three necessarily have anything to do with one another"

In other words, we all have our own perspectives, our own views of things, and while it's not malicious, it does mean that we each view things in different ways. As we deal with these issues, that means that finding some resolution will entail trying to understand the viewpoint of the other side, rather than just screaming out our own viewpoint.

Also, I do not find it helpful to take a martyr's tone in this. Statements about "I'll probably be banned for saying this, and if this is my last post goodbye my friends" (to paraphrase) simply do not help. They do not build up the club, but they go further to tear it down.

There are a number of fine people in this club, many of whom I've met at the two Tillercons I've been able to meet. From that knowledge, I firmly believe we can worth through this, if we keep our heads.

Major General Gary McClellan
Reserve Artillery
2/XV AoT USA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 4:00 pm 
Gary,

"Also, I do not find it helpful to take a martyr's tone in this. Statements about "I'll probably be banned for saying this, and if this is my last post goodbye my friends" (to paraphrase) simply do not help. They do not build up the club, but they go further to tear it down."


You are entitled to your opinion....I felt I needed to state publicly to remain in the club unless expelled....So you and I will have to agree to disagree.

I agree that this can be worked through, and I hope that it is worked through.

One thing I can say, is that anyone who has intellectual property belonging to them on any of closed sites may contact Larry and obtain it. Larry is not trying to keep it.



BG Hank Smith
Army of Georgia
Smith's Corp Commanding


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2010 4:17 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 22, 2001 8:05 pm
Posts: 846
Location: Panhandle of Texas
I'm going to lock this thread before it gets out of hand. Since all members of the Cabinet aren't available at this time to fashion any sort of a reply we'll leave at this for now and I'll ask that the posting stop here.

General Mark Nelms
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