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 Post subject: Gettysburg Map RR cut missing
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:47 am 
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The cut graphic shows in 2D but nothing in 3D. I highlighted the hexsides in brown to clarify. This is along the unfinished RR parallel to Chambersburg Pike near the NW map edge east of Carriage House. This is not the RR cut east of McPherson's Ridge.

I believe these 3 hexes should be set 1 elevation level lower, which would also allow the cutting graphic to be displayed. I play a lot in 3D and it was like hitting an invisible wall. Has anyone else ever run into this?Image

Cpt. Richard Simonitch
1st Brigade, 2nd Division
VI Corps, AoS


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:44 am 
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There is an error but not where you show it. Cuts aren't the same as elevation so there isn't necessarially an elevation change when a hex has a cut in it. Selecting the hex and holding down the right mouse button with the cursor on the terrain graphic displayed in the hex info bar will show what hex sides have cuts.

The error is in hex 47,36. Instead of showing two cuts on each side of the trail it only shows a total of three. The NE hexside cut is missing. If you sellect hex 48,35 and display its settings you will find the missing cut its just facing the wrong direction. It's hard to spot the 2D graphics since you have to look really close to see that the graphic is on the wrong side of the hex line. Unfortunately, 3D mode doesn't have a graphic for cuts. It's graphic file for hexsides only has a few features on it for some reason.

General Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
1st Marine Btln AoM (CSA)


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:42 am 
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This is all very interesting, and something I had never noticed before. Also interesting is that units in the cut have a panoramic view through the sides of the cut. My understanding of the disadvantages of being in the cut was the inability to climb up the cut hexsides and vulnerability of units to fire coming from the sides of the cut with extremely limited ability to respond.

As nearly as I can tell, the game deals with cuts by prohibiting movement or melee across a cut hexside, and giving the unit firing into the cut +40% fire, while those firing out of the cut suffer no penalty for the cut itself.

My understanding historically is that the 2nd Miss climbed down into the cut easily enough, but couldn't climb up the other side. That made them a packed target, and I suppose is the justification for the +40% modifier. HPS hadn't invented a density modifier yet when the cut came into being. I think a fire penalty for units inside the cut makes more sense, although there is usually already an elevation penalty (although not for the cut in the example)

Sounds to me that the cut in question should really be a sunken road instead of a cut, or the designer should fudge and lower the terrain in the cut by one level. Hope Rich Hamilton sees this thread.

Also, I never did locate anything about the cut in the documentation. I had to infer most of the above from parameter data and game test. Anyone know where the explanation of the railroad cut is located? Seems like I saw it a couple of years ago.

MG Mike Mihalik
2/3/I/AoMiss/CSA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 8:20 am 
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Where did you get those 3-d graphics?

Lt General Jon Thayer
2/3/III
Army of Northern Virginia

jonathanthayer@bellsouth.net


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:44 am 
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If you think you have a glitch, then you should send the information to HPS support and get the correct answer to your question:

support@hpssims.com

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands, General
4th Brigade, Cavalry Division, XIV Corps,
Army of Cumberland, USA
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 11:00 am 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jon Thayer</i>
<br />Where did you get those 3-d graphics?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
These are my own creation, based on various existing mods and picking and choosing from other Tiller games. I did some image processing to get things like trees and roads to blend and appear more photo-realistic. If you guys like them I can post them to the Wargamer.com games depot for downloading.

Cpt. Richard Simonitch
1st Brigade, 2nd Division
VI Corps, AoS


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 12:51 pm 
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Your graphics are terrific and I would love to have access to them.

Lt General Jon Thayer
2/3/III
Army of Northern Virginia

jonathanthayer@bellsouth.net


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:03 pm 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mihalik</i>
<br />
Sounds to me that the cut in question should really be a sunken road instead of a cut, or the designer should fudge and lower the terrain in the cut by one level. Hope Rich Hamilton sees this thread.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I posted this query over on the Wargamer boards, where Rich Hamilton passed it off as WAD. I just wanted to see what you guys think.

My last game question to HPS support went unanswered without even an acknowledgement, for me it's not really worth the effort to try to get a response.

Cpt. Richard Simonitch
1st Brigade, 2nd Division
VI Corps, AoS


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:49 pm 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by simovitch</i>
<br />[I posted this query over on the Wargamer boards, where Rich Hamilton passed it off as WAD. I just wanted to see what you guys think.

My last game question to HPS support went unanswered without even an acknowledgement, for me it's not really worth the effort to try to get a response.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Hi, Captain,

Wow. I have always gotten a timely response from HPS support, and I think it has always been Rich Hamilton. Just out of curiosity, what is WAD?

MG Mike Mihalik
2/3/I/AoMiss/CSA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:49 pm 
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Sir, WAD means Working As Designed.

Cpt. Richard Simonitch
1st Brigade, 2nd Division
VI Corps, AoS


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 5:11 pm 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by simovitch</i>
<br />Sir, WAD means Working As Designed.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Thanks, Captain! Never knew that before. Personally, I agree it needs fixing, preferably by lowering the terrain in the cut by a level. You can make out the north side of the cut in 3D when it is at a lower level.

MG Mike Mihalik
2/3/I/AoMiss/CSA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 10:31 pm 
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Mike is right. There is a graphic for cuts but it is only visible when the 'slope' is facing SE, S or SW AND the adjacent hex is at a lower elevation. I agree that this really ought to be fixed. If a terrain feature has an effect on movement, combat or visibility it ought to be represented clearly on the 3d maps as well as the 2d maps.

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[url="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/a.r.barlow/acwgc/acwgc_personal_record.htm"]General Antony Barlow[/url]
[url="http://homepage.ntlworld.com/a.r.barlow/acwgc/aoc.htm"]4/1/XX, Army of the Cumberland[/url]


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 2:51 am 
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I like the graphics too, please do make them accessable.

As to the error, definitely not a WAD, more like and SU (Screw Up). It's a map definition error. They put the cut in on the SE side of hex 48,35 instead of NE side of 47,36 where it should be (using Historic Scenario 1.1 map).

And I checked on whether there is a 3D graphic for cuts and found it. You can see it if you go to the railroad cut NE of Gettysburg. The problem is that they emplemented it only as a "Drop", that is, a level change side. Since these cuts are one hexes without a level change it can't display. You also have the problem of a 3D view with only one direction can show the nearer side of a drop that faces the north.

Now to the problem of should the terrain shown here be at a lower level so it would display. Problem is a hex is 120 yards wide and the cut isn't. While it wouldn't hurt to lower them from the cut point of view I am not sure you can from the non-cut directions (NE and SE). In terms of representing the terrain if you have visited this part of the battlefield you know the cut is very narrow and the terrain around it is about the same level as adjacent terrain. But since units in the cut hexes can't really choose not to be seems you could just go ahead and lower the hexes one level.

General Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
1st Marine Btln AoM (CSA)


The Railroad Cut looking west from where Archer got caught in it. Chambersburg Pike is to the left. This isn't the part in question but is probably typical of the size of the cut.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 7:14 am 
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OK, I emailed HPS support and Rich says he's looking into it. Thanks for your responses.

The graphic mod will be ready for downloading in a few days; I'll post a new thread with more screenshots when it's ready.

Cpt. Richard Simonitch
1st Brigade, 2nd Division
VI Corps, AoS


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 11:58 am 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by simovitch</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mihalik</i>
<br />
Sounds to me that the cut in question should really be a sunken road instead of a cut, or the designer should fudge and lower the terrain in the cut by one level. Hope Rich Hamilton sees this thread.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I posted this query over on the Wargamer boards, where Rich Hamilton passed it off as WAD. I just wanted to see what you guys think.

My last game question to HPS support went unanswered without even an acknowledgement, for me it's not really worth the effort to try to get a response.

Cpt. Richard Simonitch
1st Brigade, 2nd Division
VI Corps, AoS
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

If you ever send an email to Support at hpssims.com and you get no answer, that means it didn't get through - I answer every single email to the account. Granted, everyone doesn't always like my answers, but I do answer. [:D]



LGen. Hamilton
II Corps
ANV, CSA


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