American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)
http://www.wargame.ch/board/acwgc/

Maneuvers vs Battles
http://www.wargame.ch/board/acwgc/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17190		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  nsimms [ Mon Dec 12, 2011 3:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Maneuvers vs Battles
When I skim games being played in the DoR, I sometimes see where a Union player is playing a Union player (or a Reb player playing a Reb player) in a game registered as a battle. That is incorrect under most circumstances. Here is my understanding of the club rules (and previous policies when it comes to tournament games):

When a Union player(s) plays a Union player(s) (or a Reb player(s) plays a Reb player(s)) then the game is a maneuver and not a battle unless it is an ACWGC sanctioned tournament game, in which case it would be a battle.

When a Union player(s) plays a Reb player(s) and the Union player(s) commands the Union army and the Reb player(s) commands the Reb army, then the game is a battle.

When a Union player(s) plays a Reb player(s) and the Union player(s) commands the Reb army and the Reb player(s) commands the Union army, then the game is a battle.

In a MP Game, the rules above apply, except that when there is a combination of Union and Reb players on the same side (e.g. a combination of Union and Reb players command the Union side), then the game is a maneuver unless it is an ACWGC sanctioned tournament game (and I'm not aware of any ACWGC sanctioned MP tournament games in the past).
Author:  Ernie Sands [ Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Maneuvers vs Battles
That is also my understanding of the rules.

You MAY play any side as long as your opponent is from the other side and THAT is a BATTLE.

If players are from the SAME side, then that is a maneuver.
Author:  Neal Hebert [ Tue Dec 13, 2011 2:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Maneuvers vs Battles
I've noticed this many times in the past. For individual games would it be possible for the DoR to identify the players parent organization and assign the "battle" or "maneuver" automatically?
Author:  Ernie Sands [ Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Maneuvers vs Battles
It is up to the members to properly register a game.
Author:  nsimms [ Thu Dec 15, 2011 12:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Maneuvers vs Battles
Two points based upon what has been said thus far:

1 - If it is up to the members to properly register a game, then who has the responsibility to police up members who are registering games incorrectly and are those people aware that they have this responsibility?

2 - Everybody pointed out the rules on the Cadets Playing Games thread so why hasn't anybody jumped on this one because you can't find in the rules where a game between two Union players can legitimately be scored as a battle if it occurs in a club wide ACWGC sanctioned tournament game? It makes sense but the rules don't support it.
Author:  Ernie Sands [ Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Maneuvers vs Battles
Point # 1:

As for who to police the game registration? There is no one actually ASSIGNED nor do I think there should be. We are all responsible persons and there is a slight difference in points allowed, but the majority of games are properly registered.

I do not think we need more administrative burdens and this matter should be a self-policing situation.

Point #2:

From current club rules:
Quote:
5.3.2 OBD Points. Points will be awarded for both games of a mirror match. If the match is between officers of different military groups, full points will be awarded. If officers from the same military group are on opposite sides the games of the match will be considered maneuvers and the points awarded divided by 2. (Exception: Tournaments approved by the CoA’s of both military groups may use mirror matches that count as regular battles even though, during certain matches of that tournament, two officers of the same side may end up facing each other.)
Author:  nsimms [ Thu Dec 15, 2011 4:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Maneuvers vs Battles
Point #1: Self-policing doesn’t work if you don’t know that you’re doing something wrong. It’s an education process that all of us go through (and never stop going through). Those checks need to be made. If they require too much labor then we need to simplify the rules instead of ignoring/not enforcing them. In this case, if it’s too difficult to educate everyone on how to file for battles/maneuvers then make them all count the same points and we don’t have that problem. Yes, I know that the club is founded on Union vs Confederate and encourages that type of play by using differences between battles and maneuvers but if it isn’t worth checking, why bother. It’s unfair to the members who are aware of the rule and abiding by it.

Point #2: Thanks and you are half right. That pertains to tournament mirror games approved by both CoAs but there is nothing in the rules about tournament games between members of the same military group that are not mirror matches. I’m definitely for the exception applying to all versions of tournament games approved by both CoAs and it was probably just an oversight and the loophole needs to be closed.
Author:  Scott Ludwig [ Thu Dec 15, 2011 7:24 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Maneuvers vs Battles
First off, sorry Ned for not replying to the Link Express email yet. Will do so this week.

Second - I agree that maneuvers should no longer be valid and make everything battles, especially if we can't police the situation. I think the natural rivalry between the forces will always have the majority of battles be Union vs Confederate. Plus there are often periods where officers from one side have a lot of "looking for battle" posted in the opponent finder than the others and are forced to accept games with member of the same side. At the iNWC where I managed the Club for almost 10 years we had no maneuvers and there was always a healthy rivalry between Allied Coalition & French and people naturally moved towards fighting someone from the other side.

I think the undue burden on those who manage the armies here is enough, something that I don't agree with and the over bloated regulation of Club Rules is enough to scare anyone away. Why create more unneeded burden on a shrinking group of volunteers. If people are concerned, get the Cabinet to police it, they are good at regulation... :P
Author:  KWhitehead [ Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Maneuvers vs Battles
If I remember correctly, which at my age is an achievement in itself, there is no difference anymore between the points awarded for a battle versus a maneuver. The only use they now server is flagging games as being between same side versus opposite sides. So unless you are making a statistical study of the report database it is a meaningless entry and hardly worth any more enforcement than asking people to use the right designation just in case someone does decide to do a statistical study of our past games.
Author:  Joe Meyer [ Fri Dec 16, 2011 4:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Maneuvers vs Battles
My memory sometimes plays tricks upon me, too...like not working when I want it to! But, in this case, I managed to recall a obscure Club Rule about maneuver games and points!

4.2.1.3 Maneuvers A maneuver is defined as a game played by two members of the same military group. This action could be taken as an advanced training exercise. The points received for completing a maneuver would be computed by using the basic formula, then dividing the results in half.

Lawyer's college or not, there you have it! I believe that in its operation the DoR program does distinguish between "battle" and "maneuver" points, but I am not completely certain of this. Perhaps someone could test the issue.
Author:  Ernie Sands [ Fri Dec 16, 2011 11:12 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Maneuvers vs Battles
The points by the awarded in the DOR for a maneuver is 1/2 that of a battle.
Author:  KWhitehead [ Sat Dec 17, 2011 9:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Maneuvers vs Battles
Yep, rules still say half. Guess I remember the discussion of but not the result of:

Quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by greenFyre
Agreed - many excellent points made here. I guess in the end I like the proposal that manuevers and battles be treated the same except:

i) no win/loss bonus/penalty;
ii) no battle star/ribbon/award.

I think this creates a wonderful duality in that manuevers are then only marginally different from an OBD perspective, but at the same time the "battle" distinction of ribbons still encourages and recognizes battles with the opposing side.

Please make your recommendations to the cabinet and reference this thread. Rules are being discussed and this is another topic that can be looked at.

You can post a message in the Cabinet forum or, better yet, send an email to the cabinet link that is provided.

Ernie Sands
LtGen, CO XXIII Corps, AoO
Author:  Ernie Sands [ Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Maneuvers vs Battles
Talk about an old POST. It must be from several years ago. :lol:
Page 1 of 1 All times are UTC - 5 hours
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
https://www.phpbb.com/