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 Post subject: Re: Forced March
PostPosted: Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:26 pm 
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mihalik wrote:
I agree with John that there were many instances of night movement in the Civil War. I think that a 50 fatigue penalty for movement at night and a 300 fatigue penalty for melee at night are adequate. What I have never understood, although I believe it has been with the system since the inception of Talonsoft, is the night morale penalty. It squares with no historical data that I know of.


we are not really talking about instances of night movement..........we are talking about every unit marching 24/7 every turn as if they had flashlites and road signs to go by.

hell, they had a hard enough time finding their way around in daylight.

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Pickett's Infantry Division, I Corps,
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 Post subject: Re: Forced March
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:08 am 
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How about as a compromise having ANY night movement cause automatic disruption? ...even for units marching on roads at night. Perhaps another house rule could restrict night marches to major Pike routes only?

I've played a lot of games where I've made big night movements because it was the only way of moving in a hidden manner. It is extremely difficult to move in daylight and keep it hidden from an opponent (with the 70 hex visibility at least).

Gen. Matthews and I have just started a game which we have agreed will prohibit any night movement. This will give me a very different game experience as I just know that I would otherwise be relying on the ability to march my reinforcements up during the night. Having to stop and "sleep" for 8 hours is gonna spice things up a great deal.

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 Post subject: Re: Forced March
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:18 am 
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Digglyda wrote:
How about as a compromise having ANY night movement cause automatic disruption? ...even for units marching on roads at night. Perhaps another house rule could restrict night marches to major Pike routes only?

I've played a lot of games where I've made big night movements because it was the only way of moving in a hidden manner. It is extremely difficult to move in daylight and keep it hidden from an opponent (with the 70 hex visibility at least).

Gen. Matthews and I have just started a game which we have agreed will prohibit any night movement. This will give me a very different game experience as I just know that I would otherwise be relying on the ability to march my reinforcements up during the night. Having to stop and "sleep" for 8 hours is gonna spice things up a great deal.


Actually I proposed the following in The Southern Raiders War College and never got any feedback.
I guess most of the guys are sleeping due to excessive marching at night.

1. NO FIRING
2. NO MELEE
3. NO CAPTURING
4. NO OFF ROAD/PIKE MOVEMENT
5. NO TRAIL MOVEMENT
6. NO RAIL MOVEMENT
7. UNITS MAY CHANGE FORMATION
8. UNITS MAY CONSTRUCT FORTIFICATIONS
9. THE BATTLE AND ALL MOVEMENT COMES TO A STOP EXCEPT FOR PIKE/ROAD MOVEMENT.
10. CONSTRUCTION OF FORTIFICATIONS IS PERMITTED.
11. THESE RULES APPLY TO NIGHT TURNS ONLY

But after further review I thought, lets try no movement at all.........see if it works and James agreed.

we / I will keep the rank and file posted.

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 Post subject: Re: Forced March
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:13 am 
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mihalik wrote:
I agree with John that there were many instances of night movement in the Civil War. I think that a 50 fatigue penalty for movement at night and a 300 fatigue penalty for melee at night are adequate. What I have never understood, although I believe it has been with the system since the inception of Talonsoft, is the night morale penalty. It squares with no historical data that I know of.


I agree there should be night movment otherwise you can't have something like Anderson's move to Spotsylvannia. However the 50 fatigue is to low to discourage its use. I would put the number at 150-250. High enough that makeing more than two hours of night movement would put you at second level fatigue.

I do question whether fire combat should be allowed. For sure no melee from column since column can move at night without being disrupted. Turn play has an additional problem of allowing column movement and if you get adjacent to the flank or rear of an enemy you can change back to line for some extremely effective fire.

I believe the morale penalty was put in there to increase the chance of disruption and route for night combat. That is historical since the troops usually became very disoriented which quickly turned into an hurge to head for the rear wherever they thought it was.

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 Post subject: Re: Forced March
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:55 am 
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A night time road march should accrue about 700 points of fatigue. Whatever it takes per turn to get there. We did an all night tactical cross country out at the National Training Center, about 1990, and we were still in pretty good shape come morning, but, man, the guys were grouchy! They just wanted to go kill something and then go to sleep!
J Ferry
2lt 2/20th Corps


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 Post subject: Re: Forced March
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:46 pm 
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With the new fatigue rules I found that your units would be quite fatigue at the end of an all night march. This is with the night fatigue movement rule on.
I am not sure what you guys are talking about. The penalty seems quite good as it stands. An opponent of mine did move all night and was in no shape to mount a sustained attack. He went to maximum quite quickly. He was not paying attention to it. Not only do you accumulate more fatigue but you do not recover any as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Forced March
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:16 pm 
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Pierre--
Could you please tell us what scenario that was? I have always felt that when the engine was working correctly no special rules were needed to make night moves/combat an "iffy" proposition!
John
2lt 2/20th Corps


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 Post subject: Re: Forced March
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:19 pm 
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pierred wrote:
With the new fatigue rules I found that your units would be quite fatigue at the end of an all night march. This is with the night fatigue movement rule on.
I am not sure what you guys are talking about. The penalty seems quite good as it stands. An opponent of mine did move all night and was in no shape to mount a sustained attack. He went to maximum quite quickly. He was not paying attention to it. Not only do you accumulate more fatigue but you do not recover any as well.


what game are you refering to?

this new fatigue rule you refer to is not in all games.......I know its not in Gettysburg.

I recently completed a night segment with units marching every turn and noticed very little effect.

this was a created scenario (by another member).

is it possible to modify the effects of night fatigue through the pdf?

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Pickett's Infantry Division, I Corps,
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 Post subject: Re: Forced March
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:29 pm 
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KWhitehead wrote:
I believe the morale penalty was put in there to increase the chance of disruption and route for night combat. That is historical since the troops usually became very disoriented which quickly turned into an hurge to head for the rear wherever they thought it was.


Hi, General,

Off the top of my head, I can think of four instances of combat at night; Culp's Hill, Wauhatchie, Cemetery Hill and Spotsylvania. I do not recall anyone routing except XI Corps units in front of Cemetery Hill, and I don't think they had recovered from the drubbing they received the day before. I do not think any of these combats were successful for the attacker, and the first two would be considered definitely unsuccessful. I think that there are reasons examples of night attacks are so few, and that's why I feel night movement and melee penalties are appropriate.

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Forrest's Cavalry Corps
AoWest/CSA


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 Post subject: Re: Forced March
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:25 pm 
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I just checked the optional rules for Gettysburg, and night movement fatigue is there. Maybe it is not working, but it is there.
J Ferry
2lt, 2/20th Corps


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 Post subject: Re: Forced March
PostPosted: Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:39 pm 
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Gen Matthews
I missed your question at first. It is definitely possible to modify fatigue levels and effects in the pdt (not the pdf) The demo Overland pdt will tell you what lines will affect fatigue.
Mike
I'd say that Culp's qualifies rather shakily as night combat. Most of it took place in the equivalent of the 4-hex visibility periods of dusk and dawn. The rebs took the lower Culp's Hill height because the Twelfth Corps had just left, except for Green's brigade, and they did that just at dusk. After dark, the old occupants came back and came under fire when they attempted to occupy the old trenches, so they just pulled back to wait for dawn, pretty much as we would do now if we accidentally ran into somebody on a night turn. At first light, the rebs attacked and just got smothered with fire. James Miller aptly describes the aftermath scene in a couple of his letters in my book.
J Ferry
2lt 2/20th Corps


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 Post subject: Re: Forced March
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:26 pm 
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Hi, John,

When I read the chapter dealing with Culp's Hill in Pfanz's book on the subject, I got the impression that both fire and what I would define as melee combat (although I don't think it came to hand to hand, although it did so on Cemetery Hill) was conducted after dark. I will read that part again when I get a chance. But I think my points stand.

One thing we tend to forget is that night turns are three times as long as a day turn, so in essence the troops are moving down the road at less than a mile an hour. I have had experience with night marching as you have, and I think that is pretty slow even for night marching. Perhaps some rest was factored into the equation.

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 Post subject: Re: Forced March
PostPosted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:28 pm 
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Even Stonewall Jackson, hard driver that he was, marched his men for 50 minutes and let them rest for ten. Instead of Harry Pfanz (I love his stuff, especially the 2nd Day book) I have an eyewitness--two actually--from the 111th Pa. Col George Cobham, in command of the brigade, and Pvt James Miller.
J. Ferry
2lt 2/20th Corps


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