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 Post subject: Re: Gamey tactics
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 9:27 pm 
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A march column is four men wide. An assault column forty men. A hex is 125 yards wide. A column which assaults should not have used the road rate that turn.
Humorous post, though. :lol:
John Ferry
LTC 2/20th Corps.


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 Post subject: Re: Gamey tactics
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 9:43 pm 
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Here's one, speaking of how many electronic men you can place on the head of a pin:
A hex being 125 yards, with 1000 men in the hex, all firing, that would be eight ranks blazing away at once. Aren't there some board games that limit the number of men that can fire out of a hex, regardless of the number of men IN the hex?
John Ferry
LTC 2/20


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 Post subject: Re: Gamey tactics
PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2013 9:57 pm 
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Colonel Ferry <salute>

I only shoot what's in front of me, can't answer any questions about how many deep or how they got there :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Gamey tactics
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:42 am 
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J. Ferry wrote:
Here's one, speaking of how many electronic men you can place on the head of a pin:
A hex being 125 yards, with 1000 men in the hex, all firing, that would be eight ranks blazing away at once. Aren't there some board games that limit the number of men that can fire out of a hex, regardless of the number of men IN the hex?
John Ferry
LTC 2/20

A number of board games used a 350 limit. Probably more correct number for 125 yards is 250 or less. The thing that makes it vague is whether you should use the width of a hex or the hex sides to measure. It has been to long so I don't know the names of the games so I can't go back and check the actual numbers used. I know one game used a hex side limit so the unit could fire more than the single hex limit if it fired through a different facing hex.

There probably should also be a similar limit on melee. Because you can get a thousand men in a hex does not mean they all can fight. Only the front portion of the mass actually is fighting. The rest are cheering them on. What the extra mass gives the attacker is the ability to sustain the attack as casualties (and running away) reduce the front ranks. Actually physically you could get over ten thousand men into a hex. A British Battalion of 10 companies had a 20 m front and 25 m depth when deployed in Close Column. In such a formation you could pack a brigade, maybe a division, into hex size piece of land. Just hope no one lobs a cannonball into it. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Gamey tactics
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 8:58 am 
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Good morning!
I've always figured, with a double rank, two men per yard, or 250 for one of our hexes. It also works out in most cases when you are walking the actual ground and making estimates of regimental frontages.
Of course, in all our calculations, we are counting "rifles" rather than men. File closers etc are actually a third rank, non firing, there to hold the riflemen to their work. Those would be sergeants and lieutenants--ten or more men for a full company--a hundred for a healthy regiment.
john ferry
LTC 2/20th


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 Post subject: Re: Gamey tactics
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:04 am 
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Ahhh, common ground.
And a new perspective.

My problem with the infantry column melee is as General Whitehead mentioned waayyy back on page 1 of this posting, individuals never leaving column formation and just blitzing around all the time for the entire game.

And I have always made exceptions when coming from a town/city hex, and across a ford/bridge.

No on reflections of Gen Ferry's recent missive, I am completely fine if someone is willing to infantry column melee without any road bonus used that turn.
That makes game sense, (in regards to movement).

Heck, I would even encourage it, (please refer to Gen Hebert's posting on this topic of Sat Nov 02, 2013 9:27 pm).
(For that does not always make good military sense)

As always, I wish all the best in their personal, professional, and gaming endeavors.

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 Post subject: Re: Gamey tactics
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 11:00 am 
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General K:
I hope I have not been promoted and have yet to officially hear of it, for I am perfectly pleased to be a field grade officer for my whole career with the club.
8)
I know that attacking in column is sort of akin to suicide by cop, but sometimes it can be the tactical solution to a problem.
As I was just reminded by the powers that be, (one of them) JT has a philosophy of giving players the option to do something stupid, instead of making rules against it, as long as they are willing to face the consequences.
John Ferry
LTC forever
2/20th Corps


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 Post subject: Re: Gamey tactics
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2013 1:30 pm 
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The problem in HPS games is the penalty for staying in column isn't that severe. While its better to go to line, but if speed is more important column works just find. Especially in woods since the normal 50% bonus to the firer for Enfiladed fire (against column) is reduced by the Wood's -40%. While the melee is unaffected by woods or being in column. When you consider that melee will cause five times the damage as fire why bother to switch from column to line unless you don't want to melee? You take a small fire damage hit but get a 10% bonus for not having fired for the more important melee.

If the fire modifier was larger so it is severely penalized for using column then it could be left to the player whether he wants to pay the price. Right now the price isn't very high if the objective is a quick melee and there is an advantage to being able to use road movement to get more people into the melee, then it is the best formation to use.

This assumes you are using the optional Embedded Melee rule. If not, its Panzer Blitz time. Never go to line unless the unit is disrupted. First one to surround an army wins. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Gamey tactics
PostPosted: Mon Nov 04, 2013 7:36 pm 
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LTC Ferry, for all that you have done for the club I consider you a General.

For all that you have done for your nation I consider you a true American.

But most impressive of all is that I consider you a U.S. Marine.

Semper Fi!

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 Post subject: Re: Gamey tactics
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 7:42 am 
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J. Ferry wrote:
Here's one, speaking of how many electronic men you can place on the head of a pin:
A hex being 125 yards, with 1000 men in the hex, all firing, that would be eight ranks blazing away at once. Aren't there some board games that limit the number of men that can fire out of a hex, regardless of the number of men IN the hex?
John Ferry
LTC 2/20



Heck - there are even some Tiller engines that do this - Musket and Pike does, Napoleonic Battles may -although I have not kept as current on that series.

:)

Quote:
...road movement advantages
(paraphrasing mine) - the thing is with movement costs -those are coded in the PDT files - if it became that big of an advantage then a scenario designer could negate it or adjust it downwards. I had a discussion with a mate of mine about this just the other day, and it basically involved an idea about scale and what it is that you are trying to show in the context of your scenario. I do think that it can be entirely correct that columnar movement in scenarios of this scale can be probably misused in exactly the was Kennon mentioned. But the point is, that this is something that can be adjusted.

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 Post subject: Re: Gamey tactics
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 2:29 pm 
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As I have said in posts several times before, I support column assault in all circumstances. Most of those circumstances involve stumbling into an ambush when I don't have available cavalry to scout ahead. What happens is this: the column takes full defensive fire. Perhaps a density modifier is added. It melees (or doesn't, if you use the house rule prohibiting it.) If it does melee, there is a built-in advantage to the defender, over and above any defensive terrain or entrenchment benefits. This is considerable. I think I once figured that 600 defenders had about an even chance of winning against 1000 attackers, without considering any other modifiers. It may or may not win the melee. Whether or not it does, it ends the turn in column, and if it does melee, it is disrupted. Now the defender's buddies come over and pour fire into the column, albeit at half rate if they had to move. Then they can melee the column if they wish to. Now, if the column is still there, it can retreat, change formation and fire at half rate, or, if it has managed to become undisrupted, melee again, after receiving full defensive fire. I guess I should clarify by saying that I play phase almost exclusively.

Anyway, I recall very few opportunities to employ column assault as a viable tactic.

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 Post subject: Re: Gamey tactics
PostPosted: Wed Nov 06, 2013 6:01 pm 
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I agree with you that column assaults should be allowed. It is strange that we have one group saying that they just hate hate hate those players who remain in column the whole time and just blitz the whole board, and then the group in this corner is saying that people who use column get wiped out by persons on line firing volleys into them. As the HPS support guys says, John Tiller makes no rules against column melee, or other stupid tactics, but beware the consequences.
If you stumble into an ambush (real life) what are you going to do? Stand there and when the game clock says it is the bad guys' turn they fire into your paralyzed column, and you take horrendous casualties, or do you charge them and have a chance at turning the tide? Charge, I say, and devil take the hindmost.

J Ferry
LTC 2/20th Corps






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 Post subject: Re: Gamey tactics
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:58 am 
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J. Ferry wrote:
I agree with you that column assaults should be allowed. It is strange that we have one group saying that they just hate hate hate those players who remain in column the whole time and just blitz the whole board, and then the group in this corner is saying that people who use column get wiped out by persons on line firing volleys into them. As the HPS support guys says, John Tiller makes no rules against column melee, or other stupid tactics, but beware the consequences.
If you stumble into an ambush (real life) what are you going to do? Stand there and when the game clock says it is the bad guys' turn they fire into your paralyzed column, and you take horrendous casualties, or do you charge them and have a chance at turning the tide? Charge, I say, and devil take the hindmost.

J Ferry
LTC 2/20th Corps


My emphasis. I am coming around to the fact that column attacks SHOULD be allowed. This whole thread has been very interesting and many, many good points addressed.

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 Post subject: Re: Gamey tactics
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:26 am 
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It isn't so much that I hate it I just think it represents a tactic seldom used in the Civil War and the HPS game system does not attached enough penalty to using the formation to keep it in an historical context. Combining that with fact that the same formation is used to simulate both road and assault column and you have something that is not a simulation of the formation.

The stumble into a ambush while in column is a perfect example of the misuse of column to get out of a situation you should have been severely punished for. There is a reason that CW forces did not march up to the battle line in route column and didn't march through woods on a road using route march. If the head of the column did run into an enemy line it would be torn to pieces and the lead companies sent routing through the column disrupting the whole formation.

That is why a few Yankees with axes were able to slow Jackson's march at the Seven Days to a crawl. If there is enemy in the woods you can't march in column through it. You have to deploy a skirmish line in front of the column and move at the speed of that skirmish column as it clears the path. For sure a column of fours strung out for miles can't rush forward at route rate and form multiple assault columns to drive through a defenders line.

Taken even more to the extreme I played a multiplayer Turn game that allowed column assaults where my force just fixed the attention of the Union player. A smaller force meanwhile took back roads to get behind them. They actually struck from their left flank but had a number of roads all going parallel to their advance. They never left column formation. Since they hit from the flank initially they didn't receive defensive fire except from a few blocking units. They just used the 12 hex movement to quickly mass a huge force for melees. Even though the Union force out numbered them 2:1 they wiped out the entire Union force in about 6-8 turns. From the CSA side the entire battle was fought without firing a shot. The column movement allowed the player to easily put together 3 to 1 melees wherever they found a weak stack. Since it was Turn play defensive fire was mostly a bad joke.

The bottom line is yes Assault Columns were used in the CW but so were machine guns. Both were rarely used. And the HPS game doesn't not simulate Assault Column it simulates Road Column. Because it allows Column melee does not mean it properly simulates it. If it did the movement rate wouldn't include a road bonus.

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 Post subject: Re: Gamey tactics
PostPosted: Thu Nov 07, 2013 12:08 pm 
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Hmmmmm!

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