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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:33 am 
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To Officers & Gentlemen of the ACWGC:

I my short tenure in the ACWGC I have advanced to my current rank of Lt. Colonel through participation rather than through victories. I have quite a string of defeats at the hands of much more skilled opponents than myself. I have learned lessons from these games that I believe will prove beneficial in future games. However, I would be very interested in knowing which scenarios and campaigns from all of the HPS titles that club members consider to be balanced in terms of game play. By balance I mean that each side, CSA or USA, has a roughly equal chance of achieving victory against an opponent with roughly the same skill level and experience. There are so many scenarios and campaigns that I am at a loss to even suggest one to my future opponents. With the wealth of gaming experience in our club I am sure that several of you have certain scenarios or campaigns that you believe are fair fights. Please feel free to reply to this topic with your suggestions and ideas.

Thank You!

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Brigadier General Dwain Cunningham
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 8:18 am 
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I always have felt the same way.

It is difficult to find a set piece battle that is balanced.

I have said on many occasions that the most interesting battles are those that occur between maneuvering forces.

Each of our games has at least 10 or more "meeting engagements" in each game. Stick to those and you will have a shot at winning.

Antietam has a few............two I have played from both sides were 070 collision and 197 meeting at 2nd Bull Run. They were fun from both sides.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:21 am 
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Sirs,

It seems to me that we often follow two paths when participating in club ACW battles are maybe even most wargames. The one is a historical approach to recreating a battle that we can learn something of the fight itself. Balance and fairness are secondary to immersing one's self into something that happened long ago. A historical history as such.

Another path is also an approach to immersing one's self into a simulated reality of long ago. We look to create a model to fighting from the ACW perspective. In this instance a historical rendering of an existing engagement can be secondary to simply participating in a battle of recreated ACW action where one is more likely to hold balance and fairness as more important. A historical fiction as such.

I enjoy both immersions. There are times I wish the game could simply be told to create a balanced generic fight on a generic battlefield. The units and geography and turns to some degree being a random creation.

In the mean time I also am interested in what thougthts members have concerning the existing what ifs and meeting engagements.

Cheers Gentlemen!

<salute>

Yr. Obt.Srvt.,

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Lt. Gen. R. Sickbert
First Division, Fifth Corps
Army of the Potomac

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:55 am 
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I think the most balanced major battle may be Chickamauga. I have won, and I have lost, playing this battle. There are some pitfalls to avoid, on either side, but it is a lot of fun.
There may be gamey ways to win battles, but I have found it is most satisfying to fight as much as possible by the military tenets of the day, and let the chips fall.
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John Ferry
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 13, 2013 5:05 pm 
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Back in 2010 the AotS and the AoA held a tournament. Prior to the tournament we put together a list of 'balanced' scenarios by asking the opinions of various club members. Here is a copy of the list.

HPS Shiloh
013CK-Calf Killer Creek
046 FD_Rebels March on FH
063FK-Blood on the Road to Franklin
200XX-Battle of the Ridges v2

HPS Gettysburg
The Climax
Raid on Stephenson's Depot
Things Heat Up

HPS Chickamaugua
Perryville with Equal Forces

HPS Atlanta
133 An Equal Challenge Inf ?
134 An Equal Challenge Cav ?

HPS Corinth
Tennessee Scrap

HPS Chancellorsville
076C-King of the Mountain
080C - May 1863 Equal Fight
082C - Salem Church Equal Fight

HPS Antietam
183/184/185/186-EF Equal Force Fight

For those who play the Battleground games
BGG - Meeting Scenario 1-2-3-4

BGN - 03 McLaws Arrives

BGBR
09 Brawner's Brawl
14 Porter Hits the Right

Some of these are created scenarios and need to be downloaded, many of them are available at
http://forums.gamesquad.com/forumdispla ... -Campaigns.
For any you can't find I still have the downloads from the tournament and can provide them.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:11 am 
Gentlemen,

Nothing is ever entirely balanced as things like terrain and the availability of good road networks and points of observation come into play.

I like creating custom scenarios using the Scenario Editor where the opposing forces are roughly the same size but even that doesn't guarantee a balanced scenario.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:07 pm 
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I'm inclined to agree with General Hulinsky, although custom scenarios do tend to make things a bit more balanced if designed well enough.

Many of the scenarios in HPS Gettysburg or HPS Chickamauga seem to favor one side or the other. My biggest complaint with victory conditions lie with objective hexes which more or less dictate how the battle will proceed unless one or the other decides to ignore them and take the hit in points. No objective hexes, the freedom to use the map at will and letting the battle results determine who wins or loses is more enjoyable to me.

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General Neal Hebert
Edward C. Walthall Division (2nd aka "Gator Alley")
II Corps, Army of the West
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 8:44 pm 
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Often objectives do force a battle in a general direction, but isn't that the point? Meeting engagements can go awry, if you can't find your opponent.

Again, you get to the argument of historical vs what-if? I like both.

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General Ernie Sands
President ACWGC -Sept 2015- Dec 2020
7th Brigade, 1st Division, XVI Corps, AoT
ACWGC Records Site Admin

"If you do not know where you are going, any road will take you there."


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:50 pm 
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Historical becomes "what if" as soon as the first turn is played. Objectives are important, and should be a guide as to how the battle should be fought. The player who decides to just go for casualty points had best beware. It would be "nice" if players were rewarded by holding objectives for a certain period of time instead of the way we have it in these games. You can hold an obj for an entire game and then lose it on the last turn, and it is as if you never held it at all. SSG's ACW games, and probably their WWII also, will award points per turn for holding an objective, which you don't lose even if you get kicked off, and also points for holding it at the end of the scenario.
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John Ferry
LTC 2/20th Corps


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:18 pm 
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"Objectives are important, and should be a guide as to how the battle should be fought."? Perhaps not everyone agrees with being guided as to "how the battle should be fought". Why not just ask my opponent what he'd like me to do in order to guide how I should fight?

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General Neal Hebert
Edward C. Walthall Division (2nd aka "Gator Alley")
II Corps, Army of the West
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:46 pm 
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I've no problem with objectives, after all every battle had their geographic features that helped dictate how the battle would be fought or what it would be fought over. Saying that this hill top is worth 200 points makes sense when it dominates the field or that a road junction has enough importance to warrant having a value associated with it.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:38 am 
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Occupying the position would seem to be benefit enough If it's of such importance to the field of battle.

I'm looking at the map for HPS Gettysburg "!HISTORICAL 1. The Battle of Gettysburg - July 1 - 3, 1863". There are 13 objective hexes, two CSA and 11 USA.

The hex at the Hagerstown Road is worth 1000 points to the CSA yet is 64 hexes (4 1/2 miles) from the nearest entry hex for any of the CSA forces. Of what value is it to the battle or battlefield? It's not a dominating terrain feature, not situated in a place likely to be of importance to the battle, and serves no logistical purpose for either army. Losing it does place the CSA at a minor defeat, however. Is this in compensation for the loss of the three 200 point hexes north and west of Gettysburg as well as the town? Or was this put there to demonstrate how the battle should be fought?

The hex at 96-88 is worth 800 points to the USA, yet it's field of view extends only 1 hex in any direction. Does this meet the standard of dominating the field, or did someone just decide it looked like a good place for an objective hex?

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General Neal Hebert
Edward C. Walthall Division (2nd aka "Gator Alley")
II Corps, Army of the West
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:58 am 
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Well dominating a battlefield would only be one example of the worth of a hex. I think you would also have to look at the value of a hex that would extend beyond the immediate battle but it's effect on further operations.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:54 am 
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The Gettysburg game was before my time, therefore my take on why there are two high value hexes on the west side of the battle field is simply speculation.
I believe the designer placed those objectives as he did is because they are the two exit hexes that Lee would have to use to retreat back to Virginia. Losing them would cut him off his supply bases. They have no effect on the game unless captured by the Union. So the CSA player has to conduct operations in such a way that they are never jeopardized.
By the same token, there are two high value objs on the southern and eastern edges, owned by the Union. They are the exit hexes that Meade would have to use to retreat to Pipe Creek or Washington. By that token, there is no obj on the Emmitsburg road because strategically the north would not have withdrawn in that direction.
Therefore, any map that does not include the entire scheme, from Gettysburg to Winchester to Richmond exists in a vacuum, and the objs serve somewhat to put things in perspective and context. Too many times I have seen an opponent leave his real life lifeline exposed because there are no consequences for doing so.

John Ferry
LTC 2/20th Corps


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 15, 2013 11:24 am 
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Neal Hebert wrote:
Occupying the position would seem to be benefit enough If it's of such importance to the field of battle.

I'm looking at the map for HPS Gettysburg "!HISTORICAL 1. The Battle of Gettysburg - July 1 - 3, 1863". There are 13 objective hexes, two CSA and 11 USA.

The hex at the Hagerstown Road is worth 1000 points to the CSA yet is 64 hexes (4 1/2 miles) from the nearest entry hex for any of the CSA forces. Of what value is it to the battle or battlefield? It's not a dominating terrain feature, not situated in a place likely to be of importance to the battle, and serves no logistical purpose for either army. Losing it does place the CSA at a minor defeat, however. Is this in compensation for the loss of the three 200 point hexes north and west of Gettysburg as well as the town? Or was this put there to demonstrate how the battle should be fought?

The hex at 96-88 is worth 800 points to the USA, yet it's field of view extends only 1 hex in any direction. Does this meet the standard of dominating the field, or did someone just decide it looked like a good place for an objective hex?

Usually, and this case does, these edge of the map VP hexes represent lines of communication of the armies involved. To lose them represented a major strategic loss. For example, the one on Chambersburg Pike is the source of supply for the ANV. The hex itself has no value but the pike leads to the ANV's supply trains. Loss of the hex represents the potential loss of all of the ANV's supplies as well as the main retreat route. The one on the Hagerstown Road is more subjective. If you look at a map of this part of Pennsylvania and Maryland you will set it gives whoever controls the road access to Lee's rear and the mountain passes that the ANV must retreat through. When Lee withdraws on the 4th he uses both these roads to help speed his retreat.

The smaller VP hexes you mentioned to the north of Gettysburg are of a different kind. These are Scenario Designer created objectives. The Designer is trying to control some of the player's decisions by introducing purely made up objectives to encourage the battle to follow historic patterns. Ones like the Union's around Gettysburg and Cemetery Hill are there to keep the player from retreating to the SE corner of the map and fighting there where he is safe. They reflect what the Designer feels are political and strategic constraints on the player that have nothing to do with tactics. Tactically holding the heights near Gettysburg gives the Union control of the cross road but from the battle's point of view this has no real meaning. Losing the Cross Roads doesn't affect the armies directly but it does affect the strategic situation. How much value to give to these hexes is purely a Design judgment.

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