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Choose under what circumstance you consider fatigue recovery.
I DO consider fatigue recovery WITH the OR Higher Fatigue Recovery Rates.
I DO NOT consider fatigue recovery WITH the OR Higher Fatigue Recovery Rates.
I DO consider fatigue recovery WITHOUT the OR Higher Fatigue Recovery Rates.
I DO NOT consider fatigue recovery WITHOUT the OR Higher Fatigue Recovery Rates.
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 Post subject: Fatigue Recovery - Do you consider it or not?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:48 pm 
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Good day gentlemen,
in the process of finding a set of rules that is best and closest to depicting a realistic and historical correct battle the topic of fatigue recovery is still a problem for me.
Currently I do not use the Optional Rule of Higher Fatigue Recovery Rates because I think the players have to consider the fact of a normal recovery before they force unbearable actions on their units.
Now in a topic about my current rule set General Kennon Whitehead pointed out that without the Optional Rule of Higher Fatigue Recovery Rates the players wouldn't consider fatigue recovery at all and by that would rather keep their units on the enemy in a constant action instead of letting them rest, that is a very interesting point of view and one that has to be considered.

So I would like to know from the membership if they consider fatigue recovery with and without the Optional Rule of Higher Fatigue Recovery Rates.
I allow every voter to make 2 votes to show how they behave when playing with and without the Optional Rule of Higher Fatigue Recovery Rates.

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Brigadier General Christian Hecht
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 Post subject: Re: Fatigue Recovery - Do you consider it or not?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 6:04 pm 
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I would consider fatigue recovery whether or not playing with the optional rule, but I don' think I have played without the optional rule since it came out.

Probably an interesting ancillary to the question is how it worked historically.

We know Heth's and Pender's Divisions fought on the first day at Gettysburg and rested on the second. Yet both Rodes' and Early's Divisions were scheduled to attack on the evening of the second day, even though hotly engaged on the first day. In the event, only half of Early's Division ended up attacking.

None of these divisions ended up accomplishing much when they were engaged after the first day.

We know that Lee contemplated sending Hood's and McLaws' Divisions on the third day until Longstreet protested that they were in no shape to do so after the second day despite a night of rest.

We know you didn't hear much from the 1st, 3rd, 5th and 11th Corps after their respective day of battle.

This is only one battle, but I infer from this that playing without the option is probably the more accurate choice from a historical standpoint.

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MG Mike Mihalik
Forrest's Cavalry Corps
AoWest/CSA


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 Post subject: Re: Fatigue Recovery - Do you consider it or not?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 11:45 am 
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I do monitor fatigue and try to pull units back before they get to the dreaded 3rd level of fatigue. In shorter scenarios or a crisis this goes out the window..


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 Post subject: Re: Fatigue Recovery - Do you consider it or not?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 7:10 pm 
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Fatigue recovery is especially problematic in any of Overland's longer scenarios. It just seems to take units (especially Union) a long time to recover. And I'm using the optional faster rate. Are there any tips out there on how to expedite recovery, regarding leaders, location, supply, any other factors that could speed things up.
John Ferry
Col 2/20th AC


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 Post subject: Re: Fatigue Recovery - Do you consider it or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:54 am 
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From the manual there is no trace that anything like quality or so has impact on fatigue recovery.
But there is a "Quality Fatigue Modifier" in the "Panzer Campaigns" series so it's not impossible that something could be here too.
But so far only thing that helps is changing the recovery rate in the PDT.
Ever though abut raising the recovery rate?
Personally I would prefer that over the optional rule because I find the difference of the recovery rates are just to big with that rule, if the normal recovery rate is 5% you would get 5%, 15% & 25% in the High, Mid & Low range with that optional rule. I think 5%, 10% & 15% would have been enough.

Some really hard facts from John would be fine, the manual says that recovery is from zero to twice the recovery rate, yet I made tests where I saw that units recovery 11 points although the recovery rate is 5% so I expected a max recovery of 10.

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 Post subject: Re: Fatigue Recovery - Do you consider it or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 8:56 am 
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@mihalik
As you mention Gettysburg, are there casualty figures for the first day somewhere?
Just wonder what fatigue our units would have based on the casualties.

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 Post subject: Re: Fatigue Recovery - Do you consider it or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 9:51 am 
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The problem with Fatigue is that it has been expanded to represent combat and normal just doing to much fatigue. One recovers easily with just a nap while the other is trauma from losing to may friends. It is also used by night rules to force players to not do things like night fighting and marching because there are no other rules available to penalize players for doing this.

The other problem is the standard recovery rates are so low, 5% in day and 20% at night, that it is pointless to use them in your planning. Withdrawing a unit from battle during the day as was often done in actual battles (look at Antietam for Union) will have so little effect on fatigue that you are basically wasting the unit by doing it. The higher night recovery may cause some people to plan on fatigue recover by not letting it get to high but there is very little incentive to do this because a high fatigue unit recovers just as fast as a low fatigue. Also the recovery rate is still so low that few units will even recover a full level in the few night turns available. I haven't done a test to see just how much units will recover under standard rules since I seldom use them. If they aren't in force I don't include fatigue recovery in my planning since it won't be significant. Better to fight the units until they hit high fatigue then use them to guard the rear.

The optional fatigue rules however change the game dramatically. It makes a real difference if you go into the night on a multi day scenario with your troops at no higher than medium fatigue. Even in one day scenarios I will try to pull units out of the line before they hit 300 so they can recover at day rates. The Optional Recovery rates I have tested and typical results are if a unit has medium fatigue levels (300-600) it will fully recover from fatigue if you get it out of contact with the enemy about by dusk and let it rest all night. If it is very near 600 it make take some daylight hours the next day to fully recover. High fatigue units will typically take a full night plus a day. If they are near 900 they make take two full nights.

This means a player who takes the time to manage his units to minimize fatigue and prevent any from going to high fatigue will have a decisive edge over the player who doesn't in a multi day battle. And that is the whole point of having fatigue.

I would be nice to have a more complex handling of battle fatigue but we are stuck with what we have. The numbers could be twinkled but it is hard to say how much since their is little data to justify changing it.

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 Post subject: Re: Fatigue Recovery - Do you consider it or not?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 6:02 pm 
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C. Hecht wrote:
@mihalik
As you mention Gettysburg, are there casualty figures for the first day somewhere?
Just wonder what fatigue our units would have based on the casualties.


To my knowledge, I Corps AoP was engaged almost exclusively on the first day. Their losses were 49.6%

III Corps AoP was engaged on the second day. Their losses were 39.4%

Rodes' Division was engaged on the first day exclusively. Losses 39.0%.

I could break it down as far as regiment. Final tally of losses doesn't tell the whole story. I remember reading of units almost obliterated in the battle that doubled in strength when all the men who had been separated returned after the battle. Kind of the Red Badge of Courage effect.

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MG Mike Mihalik
Forrest's Cavalry Corps
AoWest/CSA


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 Post subject: Re: Fatigue Recovery - Do you consider it or not?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 5:44 pm 
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@KWhitehead
Your statements regarding fatigue make a lot sense. I will likely have to try that optional rule.

@mihalik
Thanks.

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Corps Commander V Corps, Army of the Potomac
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 Post subject: Re: Fatigue Recovery - Do you consider it or not?
PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:43 pm 
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Speaking of highly rated units and fatigue, the story of the Iron Brigade, experiencing some of the highest percentage losses on July 1 and then pulling themselves up by the bootstraps to defend Culp's Hill, indicates that morale really should be a factor in recovery. I don't think Ed Johnson's division would have had the cake walk that some think would have given them the hill.
A what if for the ages!
John Ferry
Col 2/20th Corps


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 Post subject: Re: Fatigue Recovery - Do you consider it or not?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 5:10 pm 
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John Ferry wrote:
Speaking of highly rated units and fatigue, the story of the Iron Brigade, experiencing some of the highest percentage losses on July 1 and then pulling themselves up by the bootstraps to defend Culp's Hill, indicates that morale really should be a factor in recovery. I don't think Ed Johnson's division would have had the cake walk that some think would have given them the hill.
A what if for the ages!
John Ferry
Col 2/20th Corps


Hi, John,

Below is a copy of the effects of fatigue. If I understand it correctly, the Iron Brigade would have an effective morale of C at high and even max fatigue.

If a unit has Medium Fatigue, then • 1 is subtracted from its Morale value during Morale Checks.

• 10% is subtracted from the melee strength when the unit participates in a Melee attack.

• 10% is subtracted from its fire value when the unit fires.

If a unit has High Fatigue, then

• 2 is subtracted from its Morale value during Morale Checks. • 20% is subtracted from the melee strength when the unit participates in a Melee attack.

• 20% is subtracted from its fire value when the unit fires.

If a unit has Maximum Fatigue, then

• 40% is subtracted from the melee strength when the unit participates in a melee attack.

• 40% is subtracted from its fire value when the unit fires.


I think the Iron Brigade could be pretty effective sitting on a hill in the woods behind a breastworks even at high fatigue.

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Forrest's Cavalry Corps
AoWest/CSA


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