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 Post subject: A question of Battle Ethics
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 6:57 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:00 am
Posts: 444
Location: USA
Gentlemen,

I have come accross an edge of the board battle ethics question. The situation (a King of the Hill engagement) was on 2nd Bull Run defending a ford with a much smaller force. I held my own until the last turn. All but one brigade was routed. My routed troops could not move to safety due to the edge of the board. My question is this: Is it unethical to withdraw them off the board to keep them from being captured? If the edge of the board was not there they would have automatically moved out of danger. Does withdrawing them off the board give my opponet points to compensate? As it stood three of my brigades were meleed and I lost two to over stacking. The game went form a draw with about 240 point advantage to a Major Loss at about 840 points. Would like to know so as to better address the situation in the future. Thank you gentlemen.....

Col. Joe Mishurda

Joe Mishurda, The Cast Iron Division
2nd Div. XXV Corp, AoJ


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 7:11 am 
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Location: Somewhere between D.C. and the battlefield
You will find the club nicely divided on this issue. There are those who claim that an artificial map edge must not be allowed to prevent a unit from getting away, as in reality the units could just continue on. Personally, I am of the opinion that this is an odd way of looking at things, as in reality neither would the map edge prevent the pursuer from continuing the pursuit, so demanding that units may exit when cut off on the map edge is tantamount to claiming that the map edge shall work only in favor of the pursued, and against the pursuer.

My personal favorite rule is that units may exit when *not* actually engaged with the enemy, but not when they are already trapped against the map edge, in which case the pursuer would stay hard on their heels if there were no map edge.

As per club rules, withdrawing from the map, except if it's a victory condition of the scenario in question (usually evident from the presence of an exit objective), costs you two victory levels. There is a shady area here though in that you could argue over the question whether only withdrawing your entire army shall have this consequence, or any withdrawal of any unit or units.

As always, it is best to achieve an agreement on such issues prior to starting a game.

Gen. Walter, USA
AoS / War College


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:02 am 
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In that situation I like to ask my opponent if he would be bothered if I moved units off the edge of the board. Otherwise, try and establish rules before the game starts.

Major General Don Golen
Army of the Potomac, USA!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:31 am 
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Location: Ireland
Gentlemen!

Joseph: I can sympathise readily with your situation as described. In most cases a loss of 2 Units would not have such a catastrophic effect on the result of a Battle. However, in the case of the KotH Challenge - unit sizes ( at this stage of the competition) tend to consist of 1,000 men or p'raps 850. Losing 1 in a melee costs Ye 400 VPs - a victory level and of course, the loss of 2, completely perverts the result of the battle. (Particularly if the Loss occurs in the last Turn!) [:(]

Dierk: As always, your considered opinions are excellently thought out and the Logic hangs together nicely. I agree with You in the General case - but in this situation I would respectfully suggest a different slant on your thinking. [:o)]

Consider this if Ye will -

" There are those who claim that an artificial map edge must not be allowed to prevent a unit from getting away, as in reality the units could just continue on."

True. [8D]

" . . . . in reality neither would the map edge prevent the pursuer from continuing the pursuit. . . . "

I agree. [:D]

" . . . . so demanding that units may exit when cut off on the map edge is tantamount to claiming that the map edge shall work only in favour of the pursued, and against the pursuer. . . . "

By implication, the Map Edge should ALSO not "work for" one Player - the <u>Pursuer </u>and "work against" the <u>Pursued</u>. [;)]

BUT . . . the Pursued MUST move away from his Foe and can find himself in an edge-Hex, during his Movement Phase AND with a full Movement allowance, yet be unable to move the Unit! Were there another hypothetical "Off Edge " set of Hexes, he could move into one of them and taking the premise that the Map Edge is artificial . . . he would in theory have three Directional options available to him, in his efforts to get away. ( Real Life Situation ).

My thinking would be that if the Pursued can manoeuvre his men into a Hex, where he (or the Foe) have no Line of Sight between Pursuer and Pursued, at the Beginning of the PURSUED Movement Phase, then his Unit "Slips the Noose" and can be removed without Penalty. [:I]

So while the advantage is with the Pursuer - He can only benefit from a "Soft Kill" if he maintains LoS at all times. He has the advantage of the looming Map Edge, but if his opponent is skilful or lucky enough to break LoS - then the advantage is forfeit!

Joseph: My suggestion to Ye is to contact Simone Tombeisi about this and ask for a Ruling within the KotH Challenge for Future Instances. Unfortunately for You, the Rules haven't covered this thusfar, so I would imagine the Result would haffta stand. [B)]

Regards,

Pat.


Colonel Patrick G.M.Carroll,
II Div." Hibernian Mounted Rifles",
Executive Officer
II Corps. " Shenandoah ",
Army of Georgia,
C.S.A.

" When My Country takes it's rightful place, amongst the Nations of the World, then and only then, let My Epitaph be written. "


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 11:32 am 
I like a rule that I had on one of those old fashioned paper wargames. The units could exit but only half could come back on (which assumed half were destroyed and half escaped) the units could only come back on if the map edge hex wasn't in a enemy zone of control. I don't know how or if this could or should be incorporated into the computer game but its just some food for thought.

[url="mtdavies@msn.com"]Captain Mike Davies[/url]
4/1/XXV
<i><b>"Keystone Brigade"</b></i>
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:00 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 09, 2003 2:58 pm
Posts: 201
Location: USA
While I understand the thoughts--I feel if you play the edge of the board and are caught that is what happens. Because of the end of the world effect, you gain the benefit of not having to protect your rear, and having a supply source that can not be cut--this cannot really be changed easily. Hence as strange as that seems, it seems fair to accept the consequence of if this happens to not go well. Otherwise an effective strategy might be to leave the middle of the board open, while occupying the edges only.

Brig/Maj (Not sure where we stand on the new rules) Gen Laabs
3/III A of M


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 8:55 pm 
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Location: Somewhere between D.C. and the battlefield
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by eireb</i>
My thinking would be that if the Pursued can manoeuvre his men into a Hex, where he (or the Foe) have no Line of Sight between Pursuer and Pursued, at the Beginning of the PURSUED Movement Phase, then his Unit "Slips the Noose" and can be removed without Penalty. [:I]

So while the advantage is with the Pursuer - He can only benefit from a "Soft Kill" if he maintains LoS at all times. He has the advantage of the looming Map Edge, but if his opponent is skilful or lucky enough to break LoS - then the advantage is forfeit!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Well, that's about the same thing--if you can break contact, you can exit.

There's still the club rule regarding victory levels to consider though.

Gen. Walter, USA
AoS / War College


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 4:22 am 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by D.S. Walter</i>
<br />

My personal favorite rule is that units may exit when *not* actually engaged with the enemy, but not when they are already trapped against the map edge, in which case the pursuer would stay hard on their heels if there were no map edge.

As always, it is best to achieve an agreement on such issues prior to starting a game.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

2 excellent statements!

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
LtGen, CO XXIII Corps, AoO
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President, Colonial Campaigns Club
</b></font id="gold">


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 4:22 am 
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<font size="6"><font color="red"><b>GROAN!!!</font id="red"></b></font id="size6">

Haven't we had this conversation before? Yes, we have! Have we EVER reached a consensus?? NO, we haven't!

Will we resolve it now? NO!

How important is this topic? Not very, the situation comes up from time-to-time. Every scenario, not hardly.


<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
LtGen, CO XXIII Corps, AoO
Image
President, Colonial Campaigns Club
</b></font id="gold">


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:18 pm 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Ernie Sands</i>
<br /><font size="6"><font color="red"><b>GROAN!!!</font id="red"></b></font id="size6">

Haven't we had this conversation before? Yes, we have! Have we EVER reached a consensus?? NO, we haven't!

Will we resolve it now? NO!

How important is this topic? Not very, the situation comes up from time-to-time. Every scenario, not hardly.


<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
LtGen, CO XXIII Corps, AoO
Image
President, Colonial Campaigns Club
</b></font id="gold">

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Asking a question and them answering them, you've been watching too many Rumsfeld news conferences! [8D]

I couldn't resist!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 5:41 pm 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rich Walker</i>
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Asking a question and them answering them, you've been watching too many Rumsfeld news conferences! [8D]

I couldn't resist!


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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts. (Bertrand Russell)






<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
LtGen, CO XXIII Corps, AoO
Image
President, Colonial Campaigns Club
</b></font id="gold">


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