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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 4:32 am 
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Pioneers would certainly be a useful addition, but the Nappy bridge system is rather bizarrely handled - it can take a <i>long</i> time to destroy a bridge yet, however badly damaged, a pioneer unit can repair it sufficiently for any units - even artillery - to be able to cross in a <b><i>single</i></b> turn.

So, yes, I'd like to see pioneers and bridge repairs in the ACW (and also EAW) engine, but the way it's handled could do with a bit of fixing. Maybe a bridge must be 50pts strong for infantry to cross - perhaps just 25pts for leaders and Nappy skirmishers - say 75pts for cavalry and 100pts (or more) for guns. (At the moment, anything can cross at 1 strength point, which doesn't make a lot of sense)


Col. Rich White
3 Brig. Phantom Cav Div
III Corps ANV


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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 5:03 am 
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I agree with making it take a fair amount of time to repair, but I think that in this case, any unit should be able to do repairs, not just designated pioneer units. If any armies ever reached the idea "every unit an engineer unit", these are the ones. Certainly things like roads, bridges and the like. Even more complex entrenchements like the assault ditches at Vicksburg, all they really needed was an engineering officer to say "dig there", and let them at their work.

Brig. General Gary McClellan
1st Division, XXIII Corps
AoO,USA


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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 5:51 am 
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Rich,

I like your idea of minimum strength for each kind of unit.[:)]

<font color="green">
<b>BG David Guégan</b>, Brittany Volunteers,
<b>Army of the Cumberland </b>
</font id="green">


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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 11:35 am 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Perhaps we get it in Nap first and then ACW<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I hope too [;)]

<font color="green">
<b>BG David Guégan</b>, Brittany Volunteers,
<b>Army of the Cumberland </b>
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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 6:36 pm 
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Location: Somewhere between D.C. and the battlefield
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Gary McClellan</i>
<br />I agree with making it take a fair amount of time to repair, but I think that in this case, any unit should be able to do repairs, not just designated pioneer units.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

But they should be able to do it *faster*, no?

Gen. Walter, USA
AoS / War College


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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 7:33 pm 
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I can agree with Faster... though giving any unit the ability to be a "work detail" would fit the era.

Still, it would all need the other mod that has been mentioned, that a bridge has to be a certain level to be usable, especially for heavy stuff.

Would actually be a nice change, because you can set max bridge value, so if arty needs a bridge at 125 to cross, and the max value is 70, it's a foot bridge, no matter what [:D]

Brig. General Gary McClellan
1st Division, XXIII Corps
AoO,USA


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PostPosted: Wed May 11, 2005 9:54 pm 
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Quite right, Gary, why should guns necessarily be able to use every type of bridge?

Another thing I'd really like to see is the possibility of weak bridges collapsing as troops attempt to cross. If there are engineers nearby then they could spend a turn checking whether a bridge was unsafe and would then be able to start strengthening it, but ordinary troops might not realize that it was liable to break before they were actually on it.

So, how about a system where bridges had a certain percentage probability of breaking whenever troops crossed it - higher for guns or wagons - depending on its current strength. Also, while engineers would notice the bridge's strength, other units would only have a small % chance of realizing how strong it is, although they'd probably have a rough idea once they'd crossed.

In addition, every time a unit crossed a weak bridge it would have a chance of becoming weaker and thus more likely to collapse as other units followed behind. Of course a bridge that might be fine for infantry & cavalry to cross safely might count as a "weak bridge" for guns.

The concept of weak bridges would mean that instead of necessary destroying a bridge, players might deliberately weaken a bridge instead in the hope that it'll collapse as the enemy attempt to cross and that they'll suffer losses as a result.


Col. Rich White
3 Brig. Phantom Cav Div
III Corps ANV


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 12:06 am 
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Nice ideas. We can hope. [;)]

Pontoon trains would be nice to have as well. No Fredericksburg or Chancellorsville without them.



Gen. Walter, USA
AoS / War College


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 2:12 am 
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Here are my thoughts on the subject.

BRIDGES: (Wood, Stone or Pontoon)

Effects: Allows units without boats to cross water hexes. Bridges would have three STATES which would determine what type of troops could cross. RICKETY - Only Infantry, or Leaders on foot; WEAK - Only Infantry, Leaders on foot, Cavalry, or Mtd Leaders; or STOUT: All units. Units on bridges cannot fire. Only one unit on a bridge at a time. Units can rout across a bridge. Bridges do not block LOS.

Strength Point range: Rickety: 10 - 19; Weak: 20 - 49; and Stout: 50 - 99. Can be added in scenario editor, or during a game. To add a new bridge in during a game, a unit is assigned REPAIR FEATURE, and the unit MUST be designated with 'has engineering tools.' Units creating a new bridge will create the bridge as if repairing it, see below. A new Bridge's strength starts at 0.

Effects on feature's removal: Units would not be able to cross water hex.

Destruction: Bridges can be destroyed by Artillery Fire, or by units assigned to DESTROY FEATURE. Artillery fire will reduce Bridges by 1 strength point per if occupying unit is hit, or Bridges can be targeted if empty with 1 strength point reduced if hit. Units assigned DESTROY FEATURE will reduce the Bridge's strength 1 point per turn working on it if the generated random number is lower than the number of men in the unit assigned. A unit's number of men is doubled if unit 'has engineering tools.' Unit must be adjacent to entry/exit hex of bridge, and may not use any movement points, or fire, or be involved in a melee or fail a morale test that turn. The bridge must be unoccupied.

Repairable during a game: YES. Unit assigned REPAIR FEATURE may repair 1 Strength Point per turn if the generated random number is lower than the number of men in the unit assigned. A unit's number of men is doubled if unit 'has engineer tools.' Unit assigned must be adjacent to entry/exit hex of bridge, and may not use any movement points, or fire, or be involved in a melee or fail a morale test that turn. The bridge must be unoccupied.

Campaign carry over: Existence, position, and strength of bridge is carried from on battle to the next IF listed in the ORG file.

Information on status of bridge could be displayed by right-clicking on bridge.

An addtional thought - An OOB unit type for Engineers could be created, and for that type unit it would be assumed they already have engineer tools. These units would then be company sized formations. This would give players dedicated units that could make/repair brdges fairly efficiently, and give designers a way to give other troops addtional abilities to do so also.
<hr noshade size="1">
So 50 men with engineering tools, could put one strength point of bridge up each turn. After 10 turns, infantry and leaders on foot could cross. This would be 3 hours and 20 minutes.
<hr noshade size="1">
Since the building units need to be in an enrty/exit hex only 16 units could work on the bridge per turn (2 hexes with 8 max each.) 16 companies of 50 men, with engineer tools, could put 16 strength points on a bridge every 20 minutes (48 per hour), and a bridge that could handle any unit would be ready in <s>3 hours and 20 minutes</s>, whoops, one hour and twenty minutes, but you would have troops on both side of the river working on it.
<hr noshade size="1">
Anybody have an ACW engineering manual? What are the times given for building the various size pontoon ferries and bridges?

MajGen Al 'Ambushed' Amos
3rd "Amos' Ambushers" Bde, Cavalry Division, XX Corps, AoC
The Union Forever! Huzzah!


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 2:17 am 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Al Amos</i>
What are the times given for building the various size pontoon ferries and bridges?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Lee needed three days to have a pontoon bridge over the Potomac at Falling Waters, but that was with materiel improvised on the spot.

With proper bridging equipment, it was a matter of hours. In the battle of Chancellorsville, Hooker's engineers started three bridges over the Rappahannock below Fredericksburg at first light on April 29. They were all up before 10 AM.

Gen. Walter, USA
AoS / War College


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 4:19 am 
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Al, you suggest that artillery & infantry can destroy "one strength point" - this doesn't sound a lot, especially for wooden bridges or pontoons! I don't reckon it would take very long to <i>completely</i> destroy a (full strength) wooden bridge, particularly in summertime when there hasn't been much rain recently. All it would need would be for Grant to cross over and accidentally toss a couple of butt ends that fail to get as far as the river and oops, goodbye bridge!


Col. Rich White
3 Brig. Phantom Cav Div
III Corps ANV


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PostPosted: Thu May 12, 2005 5:44 am 
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Rich,

Well for a bridge to burn doesn't take long, but preparing it to do so does.

ONE unit could destroy 1 point. Put more than one unit in each entry/exit hex and the damage goes up. 16 units could put 48 points of damage on a bridge in one hour. This would reduce the stoutest bridge of 99 points to 51, and with a second hour the bridge would be useless at 3. So a properly designed wooden bridge could be rendered useless in one hour, if the proper attention was given it.

Hopefully the scenario designer would not make wooden bridges of 99 points, but around 50-60.

This would be another reason to have cavalry broken down, permantly in the OOB file. A regiment of 10 coys, could put 2 on picquet duty, and 8 on destroying a bridge. With any luck they would put 24 points of damage on a bridge per hour. Again, with properly designed bridges, they could render most bridges useless, or nearly useless in one to two hours.

Also having Engineer units in the OOB file as companies would be the best way to stretch that resource out to its fullest.

At this rate of building/repairing a bridge a player could place 8 - 50 man Engineer coys in a hex, and build 8 strength points per turn, or 24 per hour. In a little over two hours (7 turns), an all purpose pontoon bridge (over a river 1 hex wide) could be up and running.
<hr noshade size="1">

Remember, the suggestion is a starting point. I would recommend getting it in place, and then see if damaging should be handed out 1 point/per unit/per turn or if the number should be higher, but we have to start somewhere.

Another method would be to tie the bridge strength points destroyed per turn in with unit's strength, so that every 100 men destroys 1 strength point, and any fraction of 100 men has that fraction's percentage chance of taking out 1 strength point.

If a wooden bridge was stout at 50 strength points it would take 5,000 men one turn to bring it down. With stacking limits being what they are 2,000 men at most could work on this project, that could result in 20 points of bridge strength per turn beind destroyed, depending how many units the 2,000 men are in, and the resulting percentages needed. And I guess if they all have engineering tools then it could be 40 points. This would mean in 1 hour, under the best conditions 120 points of bridge could be destroyed.
<hr noshade size="1">

With whatever method is developed, players could get crafty and weaken bridges to the point of being nearly useless, then place arty to cover them planning to blow them up in their opponent's face, or shortly after some of the enemy crossed, cutting them off.

Or they could leave bridges at 9 stregth points planning on quickly reparing and using it, at nearly a moment's notice.

MajGen Al 'Ambushed' Amos
3rd "Amos' Ambushers" Bde, Cavalry Division, XX Corps, AoC
The Union Forever! Huzzah!


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