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| Infantry Melee Calvary http://www.wargame.ch/board/acwgc/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7956 |
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| Author: | boilertech [ Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:04 am ] |
| Post subject: | Infantry Melee Calvary |
Gentleman, In the HPS games, why can't infantry in line melee against mounted calvary. I've tried in Cornith, Ozark and told that I can't do this. Why? I know that the calvary would have the advantage, but maybe the infantry might get lucky[:)] Major Gery Bastiani Fightin' Carolinians 4/2/II AotM CSA |
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| Author: | D.S. Walter [ Sun Jun 26, 2005 5:28 am ] |
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Not quite sure how you imagine it, but what's the infantry supposed to do--stab the horses? Gen. Walter, USA AoS / War College |
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| Author: | Ken Counselman [ Sun Jun 26, 2005 5:46 am ] |
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I've tried chasing horses. They always win [B)] From reeancting I can tell you that 30 men in a double rank formation (that's 15 wide shoulder-to-shoulder) would have roughly the same frontage as 2 mounted adversaries. They would hardly stick around. [:p] <font color="gold">Lt. Gen. Ken Counselman XVIII Corps / AoJ</font id="gold"> 
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| Author: | Stefan Reuter [ Sun Jun 26, 2005 6:04 am ] |
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You needing 3 men. Two to hold the horse and one to mount the horse and knock óut the rider.[:D][:D][:D] Lt.Col. Stefan Reuter Artillery Brig. 1.Div, XXIII Corps, AoO |
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| Author: | greenFyre [ Sun Jun 26, 2005 7:44 am ] |
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Now now Gentlemen; Inf can hurt them saddle boys when they are up close and personal. A rifle 's plenty long enough to jab a bayonet into a rider, or even just ramming the end of the barrel into their groin will get someone's attention most times - but Cav decides when and if it happens, and if they don't like the odds they just trot away. As Gen Counselman pointed out, it's just not an even race. Maj Gen Mike Kaulbars 
3rd "Freiheit" Division VIII/AoS 
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| Author: | KWhitehead [ Sun Jun 26, 2005 1:06 pm ] |
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Unfortunately the game's handling is pretty simplistic. While infantry couldn't melee cavalry, or at least, initiate the melee since cavalry could just ride away, it also couldn't be stopped by mounted cavalry. Horses just aren't much of a blocking force to a 58 caliber bullet.[:D] Probably a better simulation would be automatic retreat from a melee attempt without disruption. BG. Kennon Whitehead Chatham Grays III Corps, AoM (CSA) |
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| Author: | Banshee [ Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:25 am ] |
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Major Bastiani's question pertains to the HPS series. In fact, this lack of melee ability on the part of infantry vs mounted cavalry has been part of all of our games, the Battleground series as well as the HPS series. It isn't new. LtG. J. Cuneo, CSA III Corps, AoA  
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| Author: | mihalik [ Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:18 am ] |
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I think General Whitehead's solution is on the mark. Seems in some game or another cavalry was allowed to retreat before melee, but that may have been a board game. Results would be the same, except cavalry could elect to stay and be meleed. I have to say, though, I can't recall any account of such a melee taking place. But cavalry in the games play a much more active role in battles than cavalry did historically anyhow. MG Mike Mihalik 1/III/AoMiss/CSA |
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| Author: | Les Knight [ Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:21 am ] |
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Probably a better simulation would be automatic retreat from a melee attempt without disruption. BG. Kennon Whitehead<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> yes i like that one Thought out my battles it seems I’m always being melee by Calvary, sometimes in greater numbers than my defenders, let’s say for example 300 Calvary charging my 200 infantry, now just for historical curiosity how many massed Calvary charges against infantry, deployed infantry that is, were there in the Civil War, and what were their results. Maj.Gen. Les Knight **Corcoran's Legion** 2nd/VIII Army of the Shenandoah USA |
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| Author: | D.S. Walter [ Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:33 am ] |
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Mounted use of cavalry against infantry in good order was extremely rare in the ACW, and the results were usually what you'd expect--disastrous for the cavalry. There was an ill-devised mounted charge by Federal cavalry against Reb infantry (over broken forested ground to boot) on the left wing on the third day at Gettysburg--an infantryman's dream and a trooper's nightmare. On second thought I do agree that it's way too easy to conduct successful mounted charges against infantry in both the BG and the HPS games. But then that's only a constituent part of the extremely exaggerated overall importance of melee action as opposed to fire action in the series--worse in HPS than in BG. Gen. Walter, USA AoS / War College |
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| Author: | Al Amos [ Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:35 am ] |
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Crank up the fire power in the pdt file, and melee will fade into the background. MajGen Al 'Ambushed' Amos 3rd "Amos' Ambushers" Bde, Cavalry Division, XX Corps, AoC The Union Forever! Huzzah! |
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| Author: | dmallory [ Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:41 am ] |
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by D.S. Walter</i> <br />Mounted use of cavalry against infantry in good order was extremely rare in the ACW, and the results were usually what you'd expect--disastrous for the cavalry. There was an ill-devised mounted charge by Federal cavalry against Reb infantry (over broken forested ground to boot) on the left wing on the third day at Gettysburg--an infantryman's dream and a trooper's nightmare. On second thought I do agree that it's way too easy to conduct successful mounted charges against infantry in both the BG and the HPS games. But then that's only a constituent part of the extremely exaggerated overall importance of melee action as opposed to fire action in the series--worse in HPS than in BG. Gen. Walter, USA AoS / War College <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> Gentlemen, I seem to recall a similar Union cavalry charge near the end of the Battle of Cedar Mountain (prelude to 2nd Bull Run), with similarly disastrous results for the cavalry. Your humble servant, LGen 'Dee Dubya' Mallory David W. Mallory ACW - Lieutenant General, Chief of the Armies, Confederate States of America CCC - Sergeant, Georgia Volunteers, Southern Regional Deaprtment, Colonial American Army |
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| Author: | dradams2 [ Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:11 am ] |
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Not that anyone really cares or notices but..... How I remember to spell Cavalry (a horse mounted unit prior to the early 1900's and now mechanized) or Calvary (a hill outside of Jerusalem) correctly: I always abbreviate and think of a unit I did a 2 week tour with in the 70's - THE First Cav. Works everytime for me.[:D] Lt. Gen. Don Adams 5th Texas "Lone Star" Cavalry Brigade I/III ANV http://www.rootsandsaddles.com/index.htm 
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| Author: | Les Knight [ Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:31 am ] |
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by dradams2</i> <br />Not that anyone really cares or notices but..... How I remember to spell Cavalry (a horse mounted unit prior to the early 1900's and now mechanized) or Calvary (a hill outside of Jerusalem) correctly: I always abbreviate and think of a unit I did a 2 week tour with in the 70's - THE First Cav. Works everytime for me.[:D] Lt. Gen. Don Adams<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote"> I wondered why the spell check would always capitalize it[:D] Maj.Gen. Les Knight **Corcoran's Legion** 2nd/VIII Army of the Shenandoah USA |
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| Author: | Richard [ Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:16 am ] |
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There certainly are too many melees. For a solution, how about: 1./ Alter the map scale, so that 1 hex = 50yds not 100yds. This will automatically double ranges and reduce max stacking by 3/4 from 1000 down to 250 (since each 100yd hex becomes four 50yd hexes), both of which will work against player reliance on melee tactics. The Norris-Frost system sort of works on this principle (ie. reducing stacking by 50%), but doesn't alter the map scale. 2./ Introduce a house rule that only <i><b>disrupted</b></i> units can be meleed. Better still, get this added into the engine itself, perhaps as an optional rule. 3./ Al's suggestion of increasing firepower in the pdt would be useful - but this would already be covered in 1./ above, since at 50yds weapons would be more effective than at 100yds. Col. Rich White 3 Brig. Phantom Cav Div III Corps ANV |
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