American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)

One thing I find odd about the way FOW works is how Abatis appear under FOW conditions. I really think they are too well hidden from the defender.

For example, I have just stared a battle as the Union defender at Corinth. It is a scenario that is part of a larger campaign. According to the pre-scenario notes that were part of the campaign decision screens, the Union has spent some time pureparing the defenses of Corinth, which presumably would have included building the abatis that now ring Corinth.

The scenario opens during dawn hours. Under FOW rules, my defenders can only see their abatis where there is an unonstructed LOS, and where the abatis hexes are within the limitations of the four hex dawn/dusk visibility range. Everywhere there are abatis outside of the LOS and beyond the four-hex radius, I can't see them. These are all abatis that my troops supposedly spent some time constructing.

In consequence, one of my Union regiments just wandered into an aparantly open hex wich actually contained a previously hidden abatis and became disrupted.

As I see it, there are two problems with this situation. First, this is a variation on the previously debated theme of being surprised by enemy units that were out of sight at the start of a turn, but which friendly unit should have been able to see for several hexes after clearing the visual obstruction that first hid the enemy unit. We have talked about this issue quite a bit already relative to unexpectedly bumping into enemy units. Having the same thing happen with an abatis hex is not a new issue, just a variation on an old theme.

More to the point, should not the defender already have a pretty good idea where his abatis were installed? Should the defender not open the scenario with every one of the abaits his troops so arduously installed already visible? Why should the defender be stumbling into these features at dawn, when these troops should already have a good idea how the battleground was prepared in the days leading up to the battle? Maybe the regiment now tangled in the abatis were the very same troops who installed them a few days earlier? Doesn't anyone on my staff keep maps or notes of the battlefield preparations I supposedly ordered?

Remember, this is a campaign scenario. The exact conditions of this battlefield are not necesarilly those of one of the stand alone scenarios, certainly not those of one of the historical scenarios anyway. I can't just open an historical scenario and take a screen shot and then use that as a guide to the actual layout of the abatis. I suppose I could poke around in all the Corinth scenarios till I thought I had the right set-up, but what a pain that would be. Furthermore, I do not play that way. I don't preview scenarios to learn the other guy's reinforcement schedule, location and schedule of fixed units, & etc. That would negate the FOW rules under which my opponent and I are supposedly both playing.

What say ye Gents?
Gen. Thos. Callmeyer
4th Bgd.-1st Div.-XV Corps-AoT

Concur. It's been annoying me to no end.

Gen. Walter, USA
AoS / War College

A potentially easy fix would be for JT to code abatis so they are become part of the OOB file, or ORG file then they would show up to only the army to which they belong all the time, but only be seen by the enemy under normal LOS rules.

This could be done by placing them at the bottom of each OOB file just like the Supply Wagons. Then scenario designers could place them during scenario creation, and for game play only on per hex would be allowed so this would be the same.

MajGen Al 'Ambushed' Amos
3rd "Amos' Ambushers" Bde, Cavalry Division, XX Corps, AoC
The Union Forever! Huzzah!

Here here; completely unrealistic and annoying as all get out! [:(!]

Maj Gen Mike Kaulbars
3rd "Freiheit" Division
VIII/AoS

I completely agree. If we can tell where our breastworks are located, why can't we tell where our abatis are located? What's the difference? Both are man-made defensive structures that we created and located...

If one is going to argue that we shouldn't see them if they are out of LOS, then why not go so far as to say we can't see ANYTHING beyond an available LOS - including trees, open fields, orchards, roads... anything we can't SEE. Why should I know there is an empty field 50 hexes away on the other side of trees and hills but I can't tell my own defensive works 5 hexes away?

And if you argue, “Well, you know there is a field because there were maps available,â€

I think you have to look at the other side of the coin. The people that DUG the trenches/set the abattis know EXACTLY where they were placed and some commanders might know ABOUT where others placed tha abattis, but not all commanders would know where ALL the abatis ARE. XYZ regiment had company A do some abattis work in hex 77, 77 (for our purposes), but they did exceptional work and added some more into hexes 76,77 and 75,77 just for good measure. Company B was a lazy bunch and only did 77,78 to their front; company C was another energetic group and did their 4 forward hexes (in game terms). So regimental commander z informs the brigade commander that he has abattis placed all along his front.

Along comes a force from another division and they are told that XYZ regiment has abattis along their front and the new division starts through the lines and moves parallel to the front and, guess what? Where in ... did these abattis come from!!!!![:p]

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
LtGen, CO XXIII Corps, AoO

President, Colonial Campaigns Club
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I still find it hard to believe that a regiment would stumble accidentally into an abatis hex. They should be able to see the abatis from one hex off, no? It's the normal minimum visibility range even at night.



Gen. Walter, USA
AoS / War College

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by D.S. Walter</i>
<br />I still find it hard to believe that a regiment would stumble accidentally into an abatis hex.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Eaxactly! We're not talking minefields here. In fact, the real challenge would be to try and camoflage abatis so that people would just stumble on them. That would be either a major engineering feat, or a bit of missing computer code.

Maj Gen Mike Kaulbars
3rd "Freiheit" Division
VIII/AoS

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by greenFyre</i>
<br /><blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by D.S. Walter</i>
<br />I still find it hard to believe that a regiment would stumble accidentally into an abatis hex.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Eaxactly! We're not talking minefields here. In fact, the real challenge would be to try and camoflage abatis so that people would just stumble on them. That would be either a major engineering feat, or a bit of missing computer code.

Maj Gen Mike Kaulbars
3rd "Freiheit" Division
VIII/AoS



<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Even enemy troops should be able to see an abatis at 100-125 yards... If I can tell what part of a green a hole is located and how far back from a bunker or lake to get there, I should think that locating a giant pile of sticks should not be a problem!!!!

Regards,
Lt. Col. Alan Lynn
3rd Battery "Jacksonville Greys"
4th Div, II Corps, AoA
God bless <><

While I agree the side the abatis belonged to should know where all of them are, I don't completely agree with the enemy being able to see them before they stumble into them without doing some recon first.

We sometimes forget that turn based games are trying to simulate more than just fog of war and our ability to exercise absolute unit control didn't exists in the Civil War. A regiment really didn't maneuver as an indepent organization. If a brigade advanced and one of its regiments ran into an abatis, swamp, etc. that the brigade commander couldn't see when he ordered the movement, the regiment was expected to keep moving regardless. Othewise the whole brigade would have to stop or be exposed to being flanked. The colonel really didn't have the option to slide sideways and go around the problem like we do. What little penalty these game enforce to counter our god like power to coordinate troop movements is through these few LOS gotchas.

While being somewhat gamey rules they at least make some penalty for our rushing around the battlefield at maximum movement rates as if no enemy existed to hinder us.

BG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
III Corps, AoM (CSA)