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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:04 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2001 12:13 am
Posts: 335
Location: USA
Al, I agree with you, but the ability of a player to play historically is directly linked to his ability to find an opponant who will reciprocate. The moment you have a player who will take any liberties, you either have to resign yourself to losing horribly, or begin to take countermeasures, and you end up with an escalating sequence of ahistorical play.

to that end, the engine needs to put the brakes on that sort of thing.

Brig. General Gary McClellan
1st Division, XXIII Corps
AoO,USA


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:12 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 2:25 pm
Posts: 190
Location: USA
Does anyone here really believe the Rebel player can beat a competent Union commander at the battle of Gettysburg by limiting himself to purely 'historical' tactics?



Lt. Col. Brad Slepetz
III Corps
AoG
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:58 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2002 3:11 am
Posts: 311
Location: North Carolina
Patrick - I was "taught" it (the hard way! [xx(]) in a new player tournament in the NWC, which I recently joined. I then immediately checked it out in an HPS ACW game (Franklin) and it was the same.

I will say, to back up Al's point, that I'm playing General Mullins in an HPS G-burg battle. Intentional or no, he has so far kept units behind the front lines, so when I am able to advance past a unit, it is only one hex and then stopped by the "reserve" unit's ZOC. Being stopped there means no getting into all 3 rear hexes, means no surrounds, means no ZOC kills. And lo and behold, nearing the end of day 1 we are closer to the historical casualty total than I have ever been! (This also tells me I'm going to lose. Badly! [:o)]) The BG games penalise you for having a reserve (b/c they are not in the line firing and extending the line) whereas HPS gives a real need to have one to stop the panzers...

I do take the point about no ZOCs equals blitzkreig, but this is where I bring up (I know, again!) my Holy Grail of command control. If units out of command are restricted in movement, fire, and also <u>unable</u> to melee, we can get rid of a lot of the "rovers."

As an aside -- Has anyone tried playing a game using a form of something like The Gamers' command/orders system? That could be interesting!

Brad -- on the one hand a competent Union player <u>should</u> win most Gettysburg matches, but if we go totally historical then XII Corps needs to sit out the fighting on day 1 and sit behind the hill wondering what it should be doing. [;)] But at least if both sides play "historically" then we won't see Buford's first action being to mount up and go riding round the flanks. We simply know too much about such a battle, and when it becomes only a game we begin to think like that ("So...I Corps is right there, and Pender doesn't arrive for 10 more turns, so I can ride around Heth and bag all those guns if Heth advances and then pick up AP Hill when he enters all on his lonesome" or "Genls Johnson and Anderson, you will attack at dawn on day 2 b/c our seers tell us they only have 4 corps on that hill and we can flank 'em!" [8]). And I say this knowing I ZOC-kill like crazy. I hate myself, but that doesn't stop me since that's the way most people play (in my experience).

I suppose that at the end of the day these games can be what we make them. If they're only games, then we'll do whatever we can. But there are command ranges in the game, and we can adhere to them if we wish. Doing so makes a huge difference in rally and rout! But how we get into the mindset of someone born and bred in a totally different era, without radios or satellites or mobile phones, no computers, cars, planes, heck in most places no indoor plumbing!, with elected officers and communication dependent upon some guy on a horse you hope and pray not only doesn't get shot but also doesn't break its leg jumping a ditch or just in a hole in a field, how we teach ourselves to fight as they did is certainly a task...


Maj Gen Sean Turner
3rd Cavalry Division, "Yankee Thrasher"
I Corps
Army of Alabama


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:57 pm 
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Posts: 497
Location: United Kingdom
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Sean Turner</i>
<br />I do take the point about no ZOCs equals blitzkreig, but this is where I bring up (I know, again!) my Holy Grail of command control. If units out of command are restricted in movement, fire, and also <u>unable</u> to melee, we can get rid of a lot of the "rovers."<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Very good point Sean.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">[As an aside -- Has anyone tried playing a game using a form of something like The Gamers' command/orders system? That could be interesting!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Lars Wistedt of the AoC has set up a MP game with and orders system. He plays the Gamers's games too so no doubt there are things in common. If you go to the AoC website (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/a.r.barlow/aoc/XXAoC.htm) and look under 'Other Links' there is a document to download that Lars put together detailing his orders rules. I wouldn't mind being part of a game like that myself one day.

General Antony Barlow
Army of the Cumberland


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 12:16 am 
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Posts: 564
Location: USA
BTW, I meant to respond to Dierk's post, but got a bit long winded earlier.[:D]

He and I have played a few game in the CCC where watching the replay was like watching a good movie. Troops marching in good order, in proper formations, leaders riding behind urging them on. Reserves, proper intervals, fire fights, short rushes, rallying, unit integrity, BRIGADE INTEGRITY! It was very fun. I miss those games, Dierk.

So it can be done, and for you Rebs out there, if you would like to try Dierk is definitely one Yank that can dance that dance. You'll be surprised at the difference.

MajGen Al 'Ambushed' Amos
3rd "Amos' Ambushers" Bde, Cavalry Division, XX Corps, AoC
The Union Forever! Huzzah!


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:39 am 
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Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 5:41 am
Posts: 873
Location: Somewhere between D.C. and the battlefield
Not to imply that I regularly play this way ... most players prefer a more dynamic style of play and I certainly won't let them beat me by sticking to the movie style myself. Afterall, I didn't earn my new moniker through parade ground tactics but rather by aggressive cavalry melees. [;)]

But yes, provided an opponent is prepared to reciprocate, textbook tactics can be real fun. The EAW games probably lend themselves to this style of play most easily, but the ACW and certainly the Nappy games could likely be played this way as well.

Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
AoS


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 1:41 am 
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Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2001 12:37 pm
Posts: 356
Location: USA
A nice compromise between realistic play and "gameyness" is a few house rules. I used to hate them but Jon Thayer and I tried some BGG games with command control rules and a few night rules. MUCH more realistic looking and yet outside of basic honesty you didnt have to be concerned with what your opponent considered realistic vis a vis your own views. The nice thing about house rules is you can make up anything you want as long as both sides agree.

Again I historically HATED house rules but once having tried them and finding that the assimilation(assuming they`re not TOO complicated) is rather easy especially if they are adding realism,I really had some fun and realistic gaming experiences

Major General Tony Best
AOJ


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:48 am 
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Location: Massachusetts, USA
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by D.S. Walter</i>
<br /> Afterall, I didn't earn my new moniker through parade ground tactics but rather by aggressive cavalry melees. [;)]

Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
AoS


<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

The Blue Blitz?[:D][:D][:p]

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
LtGen, CO XXIII Corps, AoO
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ACWGC Cabinet member
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:08 am 
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Location: USA
And Here you'd thought that Dierk had taken on a job as a comic book supervillian [:D]

Brig. General Gary McClellan
1st Division, XXIII Corps
AoO,USA


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:34 am 
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Joined: Tue Apr 02, 2002 3:11 am
Posts: 311
Location: North Carolina
I hear they've signed Christopher Lee to play him in the upcoming movie! [:p]

Maj Gen Sean Turner
3rd Cavalry Division, "Yankee Thrasher"
I Corps
Army of Alabama


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:35 am 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Sean Turner</i>
<br />I hear they've signed Christopher Lee to play him in the upcoming movie! [:p]<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Dierk is holding out for Sean Bean ...

<center>Image</center>

Maj Gen Mike Kaulbars Image
3rd "Freiheit" Division
VIII/AoS
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 4:56 am 
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I don't think no ZOC is as crazy as it sounds. It would force folks to maintain an integral line, which is how they fought in the 19th century. There may have to be some other changes to the engine to make it practical, though. Like the action point system mentioned in another thread, perhaps. Having said that, the current system works well in the abstract. But a 125 yd hole in a line during the Civil War would be quite a hole! I wonder how big the one was that Longstreet hit at Chickamauga?

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 6:49 am 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Dierk is holding out for Sean Bean ...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

But after all that wizardry and light saber training, Christopher Lee does much better at the "sit and spin" stunts! [:o)]

Maj Gen Sean Turner
3rd Cavalry Division, "Yankee Thrasher"
I Corps
Army of Alabama


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 7:24 am 
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Location: USA
I cannot think of anything more boring, nor would I have ever joined this club, if my only option in playing were to historically recreate the battles in question. I can read books for the history.

Lt. Col. Brad Slepetz
III Corps
AoG
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 7:38 am 
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Location: Massachusetts, USA
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by slepsta</i>
<br />I cannot think of anything more boring, nor would I have ever joined this club, if my only option in playing were to historically recreate the battles in question. I can read books for the history.

Lt. Col. Brad Slepetz
III Corps
AoG
Image
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

That is exactly the point. You MAY play in an historical context or you MAY play in the manner you want to. I think the majority of games are played in a mixture of the two and there generally is nothing even said during setup about your preferred method.

The exception would be strict historical play.

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
LtGen, CO XXIII Corps, AoO
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