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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 2:09 pm 
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Joined: Fri May 16, 2003 7:34 am
Posts: 399
Location: Oriskany, NY USA
I truly pity anyone that feels that they must cheat. Are the few extra points really that important? I value the comradarie with my opponents far more than whether I win or lose (good thing, since I have more losses than wins![:)]). I would never jeopardize that comradarie by resorting to cheating and I have never had any reason to doubt my opponents' integrity.

Anyways, who has the time to manipulate the results until they are favorable or to alter the software (anyways, I am not that clever. Heck, I can't tell clockwise from counter-clockwise without glancing at my watch!)?.

Its a game, a hobby. Don't waste your limited free time cheating or worrying about cheaters. Have fun gaming and talking with people that share your interest in wargames and history.

Colonel Dale Lastowicka
1st "Adirondack" Division
XXV Corps
Army of the James


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 2:11 pm 
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Location: Ireland
Gentlemen!

I am grateful for all your contributions and most edified by your opinions. My Thanks to Y'all . . . . . . if'n I might try Your patience just a li'll further? [;)]

I was aiming for a particular type of debate and the Topic has kinda drifted slightly away form where I intended or hoped it would go. I was sure that Someone would come out with "Hang the Ba%&£$d! ! ! Or "suspend him from the Club". Or "debit 10 points from his OBD!" Or some such penalty.

That no one has - is testament to both your tolerance and your collective sense of Logic. The prevalent Logic being " You cannot prove categorically that someone is cheating, so it is better to err on the side of caution. It is better to let the matter rest and advise the cheated Officer to avoid the cheating Officer in future." [8D]

It is also frustrating that no one has suggested a "Punishment". Why? Because there <i><u>ARE </u></i>situations where the Club - IMHO - can, could and should take sanctions against someone who is in breach of Our Rules.

I picked cheating as an example to get the ball rolling, because I thought that it would be an emotive subject, someone would suggest an excessive Sanction and that would expand the Debate further.

Jeezly Crow Guys! Ye wanna job done properly . . . . Ye gotta do it Yourself! LoL [:p] [:o)]

I will now present two fictitious cases - relating to cheating and ask . . . . <i><b>IF </b></i>a sanction was taken by the ACWGC against the Perpetrators of the following actions, what would your opinion be, as to a suitable severity/nature of such sanction(s)?

Case 1. A Lieutenant, two days outtta Cadet College, begins the three-day Battle of Gettysburg, fighting as the Confederates, against a "Veteran" of the Club. At the end of Day 1, He has meleed like Christmas is everyday and <i><u>won . . every . . . single . . . melee</u></i>. He has lost 1,000 Soldiers. The Union has four regiments/units left on the Field - all routed into the furthest corners of the Map. It is obvious to the blindest and most trusting of any ACWGC Member, that he is cheating.

The Union Officer reports the Game to his Chain of Command and supplies the relevant Game Files.

a) What should be done, once the C of C is brought in to investigate AND has decided that indeed, this Guy cheats?
b) Should He be let go and free to do it all again against another Officer? 1 Day of Gettysburg generally takes a lot of time to play. That's a lot of time wasted by the honest Officer. Surely it is not fair to HIM to " assume that no one cheats and enjoy the game." ??? [?] The honest Officer CAN'T have enjoyed the game so far and won't, if he continues to play on.
c) How severe a Sanction would be acceptable? Dismissal? Deduction of Points? Reduction in rank? A combination f some of these options?

Case 2. Let us suppose that the example Don gave us occurs again - to any one of us. Let us also suppose that instead of following the C of C, the accusing Officer posts on the M-D Board that we are a " yellow bellied @#$@)$)*(@$)*@)$*@)$* cheater."

Let us suppose that his claims are investigated and our name is cleared.

Our name is now irrevocably besmirched, as - lets face it Guys - once Ye've been accused, the suspicion will always be there into the future. And <i>some </i> may decide not to play against <b><u>you</u></b>, because m'be you are a very good cheater, who covers his tracks very well.

Where is the recompense for the innocent injured party?

Again - referring to points a) and c) above - shouldn't the Accuser suffer some consequences for his actions?

If not . . . . are we not open to Anarchy?

In a very general sense, is this not what occurred last Summer? Would those events have occurred, had the Rules been clearer and the Sanctions agreed and available at the Time?

Any opinions?

My Thanks again Gentlemen! [:D] [8D]

Pat.


Colonel Patrick G.M.Carroll,
Commanding
II Corps,
Army of Georgia.
"Spartan Southrons"
C.S.A.

" When My Country takes it's rightful place, amongst the Nations of the World, then and only then, let My Epitaph be written. "


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 4:50 pm 
I think you're trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill.
Just because someone wins most or all of their melees does not mean they are cheating. A good player will only melee when he thinks he has good enough superior numbers and will only loose when he doesn't have the numbers or bad terrain.
In neither case can I see going to the extreme of booting the player out of the club. If indeed a player is cheating then the opponent should get a max victory. Beyond that it's debatable what should happen and I'm sure the cabinet would come up with something appropriate and that should not be a cut in stone/one punishment fits all sort of thing. You could argue they loose OBD points or rank or be temporarily assigned to some sort of "penal brigade" for any player in the dog house for whatever offense for so many months. Maybe also go to the penal brigade for other offenses as well.
And the player making the public accusations? Should make a public apology. But as much as possible this negative stuff should stay out of the public view.
The general feeling seems to be to just move on and never play that person again. Meanwhile the cabinet would have your complaint on file if nothing was proven, but would be there if a future complaint would be made. In another club I belong to that is what it generally took - repeated complaints (not in public) until the heads of the club saw a pattern, except in the case where the player admitted his guilt.
As has been said - with your limited game time, is this really necessary to spend so much time on? You say this is all hypothetical. So if it's never happened to you, why are you so concerned about it? (or maybe it's happened to someone you know and you're looking into this for them?)

MajGen, 2/XIX/AoS
"Beer! It's not just for breakfast anymore!"


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 4:54 pm 
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First, the new VMI graduate in Case 1, IF found guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt, should be required to accept a Major Defeat in the game at the number of turns played and should be required to notify all possible opponents for a period of one year that they have previously been found guilty of cheating by the club. The club findings should be made a matter of public record. If a post is made in the PBEM Opponent Finder during that year without the statement, then a member of his/her chain of command should be required to add a post to that effect to their offer or acceptance of a game. If a new game is filed with the club during that year without the opponent having been made aware of the previous problem, then that opponent should be so notified by the chain of command and offered the opportunity to cancel the game or continue to play. Being found guilty of a second offense before the year’s probation is finished should constitute automatic dismissal from the club (a penalty that does almost no good in this case since he/she can immediately reenlist in the club as someone else). I firmly believe that even with this penalty, the Cheater will not have any trouble finding an opponent in this club and there is nothing wrong with that as long as the opponent is knowledgeable of the circumstances.

Case 2 should have a moderator automatically removing any post that names someone as a Cheater that has not been officially found guilty by the club and then e-mailing the accuser with why it was removed and the correct procedures to follow. Hopefully moderators will be among the first to read the post and thus damage would be limited. The problem is that the club’s MDT and other main club forums appear to be monitored rather frequently, but what about an army or corps forum that is not? If damage has been done, then the moderator should remove the post and replace it with a new one explaining why the removal without continuing to mention names. If the accuser continues to post the accusations and name(s) then posting rights should be withdrawn from the accuser for three months.



Brig Gen Ned Simms
2/VI/AoS/USA
Blood 'n Guts hisself, a land lovin' pirate. Show me some arty tubes and we'll charge 'em.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 3:15 am 
May have already been stated (apologies if so) but, re Case 1, are we really so high falutin' (sp?) around here that, even in the absence of some sort of empirical evidence, we'd conclude no one knows how to play these games until they're seasoned within the Club? This isn't the only place these games are played, either solo or by e-mail/online. I've seen some virtuoso performances by relatively new officers. I'm aware of unacceptable tactics when I see them (e.g. leaders scouting, wagons placed to draw fire, etc.) but I don't want to always be wondering if I'm possibly waging my battles against the ACWGC's equivalent of Rosie Ruiz.

Gen. Den McBride
ANV, C.S.A.
ACWGC Cabinet Member


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 8:06 am 
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Location: Somewhere between D.C. and the battlefield
I really think this is rather hypothetical.

First of all, as has been mentioned before, there is luck, and there is competent play, and neither is a proof of any attempt to cheat. It does not even make such a suspicion remotely likely.

Secondly, cheating is practically impossible to prove anyway, unless someone tampers with game files (i.e. edits them). Replaying turns can't be proven.

Thirdly, achieving vastly improved combat results (fire or melee) just by replaying turns would only be possible by going through the results step by step, saving the file after each combat action, and going back after each unsuccessful one. That would take forever and mean a ten minute turn would take, what, like two rather boring hours to do. Who has so much spare time, who needs winning so badly to go through this ordeal, and who, btw, would be so stupid to think that the result would not arise suspicion?

Fourthly and finally, while it appears quite obvious to me that systematic cheating is a very unlikely event, talking about it as if it were a commonplace thing in the club and a problem that needs to be taken care of, degrees of punishment discussed and all, just poisons the atmosphere and makes everyone suspicious of one another. Personally I think such debates are fruitless and what's more, positively harmful.

Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
AoS


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 8:53 am 
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Location: Ireland
Hi Guys!

A cuppla brief comments before I ask one question (albeit in 2 parts).

Den: - Agreed! However. . . .

Re Case 1 - I gave a Lieutenant as an example Officer, not to imply that he was new to the Game and should know Diddley about it. I said he was a Lieutenant, with the Idea that He was a Stranger, with no known "Pedigree" within the Club and no other evidence from previous Games in the ACWGC to substantiate a "Rep" as a Cheat. However, be honest here Den . . . Play Day 1 of the 3-day TS Gettysburg as the Union and as night falls, you have four regiments/units (m'be 1,000 men) left on the Field. These have routed into the furthest corners of the Map. (In other words they have escaped to a place where it has been impossible to ZOC them off the Map.) Add that to the fact that your opponent has only lost 1,000 men - can You honestly say that the thought that he might be cheating, has not entered your mind . . . even once?

Point ONE: I was trying to construct an example that displayed a 99.9% chance that it WAS a case of BLATANT cheating.

Bill: - OK.

Staying away from this post is Your choice - but I would think it a pity if'n Ye didn't contribute to the Subject matter of the Thread. You're a "long time" member - your experiences and opinions would be of value to us all and the general thrust of the Debate.

" Putting in past allegations in posts surely brings up old wounds. Do we want to go there folks?

I can't see where I made any allegations Bill. If You refer to mentioning the Kerfuffle last Summer - well . . . it's part of the history of the Club. My intent here is to bring a proposal to Cabinet. If they accept it and THEN, put it to the membership, (which as we can see already - is an emotive prospect), any debate/dissent could then defer or disrupt the acceptance/rejection Vote on the BODY of New Rules.

I feel that it would be better to debate it now, before I make any suggestions to Cabinet. Which, is what occurred last Year, when a decision was made at Cabinet and THEN the Public Debate began.

That that Debate turned Personal and acrimonious only proves my opinion - IMHO - and led to the "Crisis" for the Club.

Again Bill - I took cheating as an example - there is behaviour that merit Club Sanctions. In an attempt to stimulate people's thinking on the subject of Sanctions/punishment - I used an emotive subject - that of Cheating for my example. To a degree . . . I'm beginning to regret that decision . . . p'raps I'm paranoid - but one or two replies seem a little antagonistic towards me personally.

Almost along the lines of - "How dare You bring up the subject of Cheating within the ACWGC. When an ACWGC member takes a Dump - it don't Smell!"

Ned: Sorry!

I'm skipping your post - but I'll be back to it further down - Honest!

Scott:

"A mountain out of a molehill"? I am certainly beginning to feel that I am CLIMBING a mountain!

" A good player will only melee when he thinks he has good enough superior numbers " - True Scott, but does He always get it right? In the example of the Lt. He won every Melee in a Day of Turns AND wiped out the entire Union Army! NOBODY is that damned Good - IMHO. Please see my reply to Den above.

" . . . . . if it's never happened to you, why are you so concerned about it?" For the reasons given to Bill above and my personal belief that some forms of behaviour haffta be sanctionable, in some form. What about malicious or insulting e-mails? Name calling on the Boards? Any behaviour that YOU feel is "dishonourable? Where should we draw "the Line"?

That is my Primary concern with this Issue Scott. I don't have a personal Axe to grind.

Dale:

Surely You aren't that mechanically inept! [:p]

Seriously tho' your point is valid upto a point. Where you and I differ is that the Rules aren't airtight. The New Rules won't be either. I too enjoy the camraderie much more than the actual games. I have made some of the Best of friends through this Club. Last Summer, frightened the Bejaysus outta me, because I felt that there was the possiblity building, that the Club would tear itself apart during the "War". At that time no-one could point to a Rule and say - "Them's the Rules - ipso facto, this is what is agreed should happen next. If Ye don't like it - campaign to change the Rule. But as things stand right now . . . there's a Rule and a Result of unacceptable behaviour - Period!"

The current Review of the Club Rules is occurring specifically to address this situation and to attempt to prevent a re-occurrence of Last Summer from being possible again.

Finally Chaps - in this reply to points raised so far -

Don Golen's case:

Someone smearing another's good name? The main and most laudable reason for using the C of C system. If at the end of that process - the C of C decided that Don had no case to answer - well and good. Justice was attempted, seen to be applied fairly and everything was sorted out.

Now . . . IF - and I'll be clear about this, please pay close attention - after the C of C investigation into the allegation against Don, they come to the belief that the allegation was brought for MALICIOUS reasons - what then?

Don's character has been privately maligned. The C of C has wasted quite a bit of their Personal time investigating. The other Officer "walks". There is no sanction against HIM!

Are We as a Club quite happy with that? I, for one - were such a thing done to Me - would not be. I would hope that if someone attempted to get me into Trouble with the Club - He would then be the one in trouble with the Club, for being such a Git! A False allegation would be very hurtful to Me personally . . . . I would hope that I would have some form of redress against the Villain of the Piece.

And so I return to the beginning of this Post.

Ernie Sands: " The club rules, as they now stand, do not address cheating, specifically, however, as a practical matter, instances of cheating are usually passed up the chain of command to the cabinet, which looks into the allegations.
The best policy for an individual to have is NOT to play that member again."

Doug Burke: " I would find it difficult to believe that with 500 members in the club there doesn't exist at least a tiny shred of game manipulation. The best course is just don't play these guys again. The upside of having 500 members of course is opportunities abound to finding quality opponents to play that you are comfortable with."

Don Golen: " The system in place . . .(C of C) . . . does work and I recommend using it. It favors saving reputations and minimzing internal club conflict at the expense of some cheaters slipping through the wires and needing to be dealt with on a personal basis (just avoiding them)."

Kennon Whitehead: " The conclusion to draw from all this is its best to assume that no one cheats and enjoy the game. If you get into worrying about whether the other player is defying the odds or has second sight into your moves, you will mostly ruin the game for yourself."

Dierk Walter: " Bottom line, there is usually a simple and logical explanation for everything that you could, if you prefer, also construct as cheating. Let's be reasonable."

Scott Schlitte: " And the player making the public accusations? Should make a public apology. But as much as possible this negative stuff should stay out of the public view. "

In the interest of genuinely gaining a consensus opinion - I've quoted and replied to, as many points made thusfar as I think could be reasonably required.

Ned Simms is the only Officer however, that has taken this Post and followed the request that I made - in that He lists the ins and outs of his personal "Best Take" on the entire Rules/Sanctions subject.

Ned lists the following possible sanctions:

The cheat should be required to accept a Major Defeat

The cheat should be required to notify all possible opponents for a period of one year that they have previously been found guilty of cheating by the club

If a post is made in the PBEM Opponent Finder during that year without the statement, then a member of his/her chain of command should be required to add a post to that effect to their offer or acceptance of a game.

Being found guilty of a second offense before the year’s probation is finished should constitute automatic dismissal from the club

Case 2 should have a moderator automatically removing any post that names someone as a Cheater that has not been officially found guilty by the club . . .

So I will close gents with the Following questions:

1. Are there any situations where Club Rules can be broken whereby it is appropriate to have Sanctions assigned to the offence and taken against the Offender?
2. What level of severity can/could/should these Sanctions be applied against the Offender sand for what Breaches of the Rules?

On a Final Note - I would not wish to inflict a fruitless Or harmful debate on the Club membership. It is as a result of some - albeit rare - but nonetheless unpleasant actions that I have witnessed over the past 2 years - and my concern that everyone should be able to enjoy this club without a repeat of such actions, that I raised the subject. To my mind, Open and polite debate on any subject within the context of the ACWGC should be respected and encouraged. It is thru' communication that the Club will grow and continue to prosper.

If I have caused Offence - my sincerest apologies to You all.

If I have caused Offence - I will desist from continuing this thread.

If I have caused Offence - I will also refrain from raising such subjects in future.

If I have caused Offence - I will confine my future contributions to the MD Board to "safe" subjects.

My thanks Gentlemen.

Pat.


Colonel Patrick G.M.Carroll,
Commanding
II Corps,
Army of Georgia.
"Spartan Southrons"
C.S.A.

" When My Country takes it's rightful place, amongst the Nations of the World, then and only then, let My Epitaph be written. "


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:10 pm 
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Before we can propose any kind of rule for punishing cheaters, in my opnion at least, we must consider the problem of "can we really identify a cheater?" If the answer to this is "No" then we cannot consider a sanction.

I don't consider having a lot of complaints a very good method. They can't be validated. And there is always the question of were they out generaled and/or sore lossers? How do you determine someone cheats? When they get 10, 20, etc. complaints? Rather avoid this kind of test myself.

The two situations that can be tested are very difficult. One is the player is suppected of using replay to scout or replay to get better results. Supposedly, if both players gave the CoC copies of every move and their passwords the game could be reconstructed and checked for player having second sight or divine luck but it would still be vary subjective.

The only situation that could be validated is if they maniupulated the game files. I would be very surprised if anyone would try this since it is difficult and can be checked although I am not sure how. Now my brother once used the game balance slider on a Gettysburg battle with his son (he couldn't figure why his fire had no affect[:D]) but that was sorta in the family.

But back to my point if we can't find a way to validate cheating it is best not to try to address the issue.

BG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
III Corps, AoM (CSA)


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:28 pm 
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Gents:

A Simple Statement of my Beliefs regarding certain subjects raised within the Body of this Post.

1. There have been instances where a "Cadre" or "Clique" has dealt with Club problems in the Past. They made decisions and carried them out. An aggrieved group outside that "Elite" posted their "Take" on the boards after the Process was complete. The Club split into 3 Factions - Neutral, For the Decision and Against the Decision.
2. One of the Grievances was that the "Cadre" was "self-appointed. That has been fixed by Democratic Elections open to All Members, to vie for a place on the "Cadre" and to Vote in the Elections . . . . 1 Man - 1 Vote.
3. I am not going to repeat my reasons for this Post again. Those that have taken the time and been courteous enough to read the WHOLE Thread, should - I hope - realise that I have the best of intentions, concern for my fellow Members and a desire to see this Club flourish into the future, in Harmony and Friendship. Without a repeat of certain unfortunate occurrences in the Club's Past.
4. I was NOT following an Agenda here nor was I using this Forum to gripe regarding past decisions.
5. At No point did I state that I "wanted" Sanctions or that Sanctions MUST exist. I did state that I could see a need for them in certain circumstances and that I would support the introduction of such Sanctions - providing they were brought in with the agreement and support of the Majority of ACWGC Members.
6. I could have e-mailed each Active member of the Club and elicited their personal opinion. But I hope You will all excuse my naivety. I thought that what I have done here was one of the intended uses for the MD Board.
7. It appears that I was mistaken. I am glad to have found that out before I did Irreparable damage to my beloved Club and hurt my Friends here. I will in future confine my contributions to this Forum to answering Jovial and "Harmless" posts. Or p'raps it would be permitted to conduct surveys on peoples favourite ACW Films, Music, Paintings, Sites etc? Nice "Safe" Topics?
8. I have already apologised for any Offence that I may have caused. I do so again - unreservedly.
9. I DO NOT, apologise for addressing the membership of this Club, using one of its facilities. Nor do I feel I should be placed in this position by any other Member
10. I do not see much profit for anyone here, in my continued contributions to this thread. I will sleep on it and make a decision on that matter after a good night's sleep.


If I do decide to desist, let me make my case clearly, before I go -
I will cease contributing to this tread because I feel it is becoming Divisive.

Not because some Members may disagree with my views. Not because some are critical of my "perceived" motives. Not because I am offended by an honest opinion, stated honestly, that differs from mine. And certainly, NOT because I am willing to be Bullied into Silence.

I refuse to contribute to any Division of the Membership into Factions.

I also refuse to pose as a Bully's "Mark" - providing an easy target for posturing before the membership as the Great Defender of All that is Decent and Right.

I am saddened that I feel placed in such a position.

<font color="red">" Welcome to the Mason-Dixon Tavern. Johnny Reb and Billy Yank are treated equally within these four walls (we don't care what color your uniform is as long as your money is silver and gold). You can trade jests, swap tactics, it's all up to you. However, rude and antagonistic behavior will be dealt with by the Provost Marshal."</font id="red">

Hmmmmm . . . . Just what is " rude and antagonistic behavior"?

<font color="red">"The Smoking room has been setup to post topics other then ACW and club related information. Here you can talk about anything to fellow members. Common courtesy is still required."</font id="red">
I always thought that what applied to the Smoking Room applied equally to the Mason-Dixon Tavern.

What a Dumbass I've been! [:D]

Pat.


Colonel Patrick G.M.Carroll,
Commanding
II Corps,
Army of Georgia.
"Spartan Southrons"
C.S.A.

" When My Country takes it's rightful place, amongst the Nations of the World, then and only then, let My Epitaph be written. "


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:30 pm 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> So I will close gents with the Following questions:

1. Are there any situations where Club Rules can be broken whereby it is appropriate to have Sanctions assigned to the offence and taken against the Offender?
2. What level of severity can/could/should these Sanctions be applied against the Offender sand for what Breaches of the Rules?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

1. This question casts a very broad net (unless it is in reference specifically to cheating). The Club Rules do not, at the present time, specifically address a cheat allegation.

2. This question is purely speculation! It is difficult to speak to hypothetical situations with any degree of accuracy. Circumstances are an important factor in trying to adjudicate a "Breach of the Rules". No set of rules can be all-emcompassing and address all possibilities of misconduct, whether cheating or personal transgressions.

I think it is better, at this point, to allow the members working on the rules to take this all into consideration and develop a plan, a set of rules to include the cheating aspect, IMO.

Once a more formalized set of procedures is established, then we can sit down and discuss the pros and cons. Right now, this was a very good discussion with many views on the subject of cheating and there is a lot of information and views to mull over.

However, this seems to have gone from a specific discussion of one excellent topic, to a broad brush approach to "rules" in general. It is like "putting the cart before the horse". Once the <b><u>PROPOSED</b></u> "new" rules are put together, then they can be discussed. [^]

To prevent any knee-jerk reactions to THIS post, I am not saying the subject should not be further discussed, but that it would be more appropriately done when there is a specific issue to discuss and a specific proposal on the table.

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
LtGen, CO XXIII Corps, AoO
Image
ACWGC Cabinet member
</b></font id="gold">


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:34 pm 
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Thanks Ernie!

A valid point and one that I am more than happy to accept.

Many thanks to my Friends and fellow members for an interesting thread and some edifying Opinion.

I for one will consider the Thread closed until the proposed rules are available for discussion.

Pat.

Colonel Patrick G.M.Carroll,
Commanding
II Corps,
Army of Georgia.
"Spartan Southrons"
C.S.A.

" When My Country takes it's rightful place, amongst the Nations of the World, then and only then, let My Epitaph be written. "


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 5:37 pm 
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If you use encryption, how could anyone cheat????

And by the way, this is just for fun! If you think someone cheated, don't play them again!!

Major Kyle FitzMaurice
4th Engineers, 2nd Inf Div, I Corps,
Army of Alabama


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 7:27 pm 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by eireb</i>
[br

Don Golen's case:

Someone smearing another's good name? The main and most laudable reason for using the C of C system. If at the end of that process - the C of C decided that Don had no case to answer - well and good. Justice was attempted, seen to be applied fairly and everything was sorted out.

Now . . . IF - and I'll be clear about this, please pay close attention - after the C of C investigation into the allegation against Don, they come to the belief that the allegation was brought for MALICIOUS reasons - what then?

Don's character has been privately maligned. The C of C has wasted quite a bit of their Personal time investigating. The other Officer "walks". There is no sanction against HIM!

Are We as a Club quite happy with that? I, for one - were such a thing done to Me - would not be. I would hope that if someone attempted to get me into Trouble with the Club - He would then be the one in trouble with the Club, for being such a Git! A False allegation would be very hurtful to Me personally . . . . I would hope that I would have some form of redress against the Villain of the Piece.




Colonel Patrick G.M.Carroll,
Commanding
II Corps,
Army of Georgia.
"Spartan Southrons"
C.S.A.

" When My Country takes it's rightful place, amongst the Nations of the World, then and only then, let My Epitaph be written. "
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Actually, I was happy with the results of the investigation. Most people DIDN'T know about it until I brought it up here. I brought it up because I thought it shed light on the question at hand. I guess I'm becoming an old reb but I think we need LESS rules not more. I thought this situation was handled very common sensibly and I really DON'T think we need to change the system or put down more rules. Why complicate things? Also known as "If it ain't broke why fix it?" You and I have been around this club for quite a few years. Have you ever seen a cheater so blatant running roughshod over the club? Have you ever seen anyones reputation irreperably damaged by false accusation? Neither have I. I appreciate you have a point of view and I respect your right to bring it up in this forum but frankly I think you are making much ado about nothing. Also, thanks for implying I might have a reputation worth sullying. That really means a lot to me.[:)]

Major General Don Golen
2nd Brig/3rd Div/ I Corps/
Army of the Potomac, USA!
"The Bucktails"


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 8:26 pm 
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Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 9:45 am
Posts: 414
Location: Ireland
Hi Don!

"Have you ever seen anyones reputation irreperably damaged by false accusation? "

No. Not specifically regarding cheating. And not necessarily a reputation damaged. But I have seen and heard of People being hurt and publicly vilified over "trivial" subjects, to the extent that that they considered not posting again and in one case leaving the Club altogether. [V]

And all because they expressed a view and were subjected to unfair treatment. As I said before - there is some behaviour where I believe Sanctions <i>should </i>be present. [:(!]

Regarding you having a reputation Don . . . I just assumed . . . . [;)]

Perhaps I was wrong? [:o)]

Pat.

Colonel Patrick G.M.Carroll,
Commanding
II Corps,
Army of Georgia.
"Spartan Southrons"
C.S.A.

" When My Country takes it's rightful place, amongst the Nations of the World, then and only then, let My Epitaph be written. "


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 08, 2005 3:13 am 
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Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 1:45 pm
Posts: 817
Location: USA
I agree with Maj. Fitzmaurice that if the encryption is enabled how could one cheat. And if you think the other player is cheating don't play them again. Besides the Club is for Fun and that's why I joined, even though I don't win too often it's just for the fun of the it.

Lt. Col. Gery Bastiani
Fightin' Carolinians
4/2/II AotM CSA


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