American Civil War Game Club (ACWGC)

I'm currently getting the hell beaten out of me by a gallant Southern gentleman, no names no pack drill [V]

We're just over half way through a 72 turn game and I given my points position I'm going to suffer a major defeat, even if I take every points location and kill all his artillery, not likely!

Clearly knowing that I can't even bring this back to a minor defeat is a little disheartening. I don't intend to be a bad sport and throw my toys in the corner [:D]

But hears my thought. Would it be an idea to have the option of turning the exact victory points off. So I only knew that I was suffering a major defeat at that time but I had no idea what I had to do to bring it back to a minro defeat or a draw or whatever. As additonal FoW would it not be better for the numbers of enemy killed to be listed as 5XX or whatever, after all I sure haven't got time to count!

Of course I could just not look at the victory conditions screen!

Hi,

Your suggestion isn't a bad idea. With the current victory display you can get information that wasn't available to commanders except in very general terms. It also leads to gamey solutions to gain or deny points needed to change the level of victory, particularly toward the end. On the other hand, we are playing a game. It would be interesting to play a scenario where you didn't know where you stood until the end, but that is possible, as you pointed out, by not looking at the victory display at all.


MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA

Interesting. I know I DO look at the victory levels quite often during a game.

It would be different, but even if you were not able to see the victory conditions, you would have to know the victory objective hexes and that would give you an idea.

Overall, it isn't a bad suggestion. I don't know, though, in how many games that knowing the victory levels actually helped me.[;)][:D]

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
LtGen, CO XXIII Corps, AoO

ACWGC Cabinet member
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It would be easy to alter the VP levels for objectives and unit losses (make them all Zero points, for instance) but if we did that, there would be no way for the campaign tree to know which options to give each player after each battle during a campaign. It would be great to play a campaign with no points and no objectives, the only knowledge being how many men you have lost, and a rough estimate of how badly you think you may have damaged your enemy. Then your only factor to decide when to fight and when to withdraw is your own instinct and incomplete information from your “generalsâ€

Gentlemen,

I think this is a fascinating idea. As for the campaign 'problem', we all seem to be overlooking an obvious solution: We, as players, may not be privy to the actual victory levels, but that doesn't mean the game engine couldn't keep track of them behind the scenes.

For instance, if the game didn't even show geographic objectives (victory point hexes), but <i>internally </i>kept track of them -- you would never know EXACTLY what geographic points were critical to hold. The same for the number of infantry/cavalry/artillery eliminated -- you'd have a rough idea of how many of your own men were lost, but you might not even know how many your opponent had lost. You would also have no idea what various point levels were needed for a Major or Minor Victory or Defeat. But the engine would know, and would base the next step in the campaign tree on that information.

This would give you, the player, absolute control over your own forces but would eliminate the gamemanship of playing for a specific geographic objective, or even last-minute surges to garner a specific number of points. Now, if you wanted to stage a last-minute assault to take as much territory as possible or to eliminate as many of your opponent's units as possible, at the risk of losing your own, that would be your own prerogative. Whether or not it would be worth it would, in the end, be up to the politicians, public attitudes, and other factors out of your control -- were THEY convinced you achieved an overwhelming victory, or were soundly defeated? Only the campaign decision tree would know for sure . . . [:)]

Anyway, I think it would make for an interesting game engine option -- call it 'maximum fog of war'!!


Your humble servant,
Gen 'Dee Dubya' Mallory

David W. Mallory
ACW - General, Chief of the Armies, Confederate States of America & Cabinet Member
CCC - Sergeant, Georgia Volunteers, Southern Regional Deaprtment, Colonial American Army

Reminds me of an old debate over at the CCC ... what is a victory?

http://www.wargame.ch/board/ccc/topic.a ... IC_ID=2018

Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
AoS

Has anyone played a game with no objective hexes and victory decided only by the damage inflicted on the opponent?

Lt. Col D. Groce
3/2/1 AoP

David Groce
Lt. Col.
3/2/1 AoP

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by David Groce</i>
<br />Has anyone played a game with no objective hexes and victory decided only by the damage inflicted on the opponent?

Lt. Col D. Groce
3/2/1 AoP

David Groce
Lt. Col.
3/2/1 AoP
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Hi Dave!

The King of the Hill Tournament is based on building your Army Battle by Battle, Brigade by Brugade and on to Division and Corps levels as Youu proceed.

The sole measure o success/defeat is the Body count at the ens of Play.[:p]

'Tis Grrrrrrrreat fun![:D] [8D] [;)]

Pat.


Colonel Patrick G.M.Carroll,
Commanding
II Corps,
Army of Georgia.
"Spartan Southrons"
C.S.A.

" When My Country takes it's rightful place, amongst the Nations of the World, then and only then, let My Epitaph be written. "

"Has anyone played a game with no objective hexes and victory decided only by damage inflicted on the opponent?".

Yes.

Try some of Dave Littons blind scenerios. Some have V hexes, some don't. All are enjoyable.

Years ago, I started a little concept where a game was played with two moderators, one CSA, one USA. They watched every turn and THEY determined victory. We did a few games like that but it never really flew.

Gen. Doug Burke
XX/AoC/USA

I'm presently playing the ACWCGDC custom scenario of New Bern. There is no objective and no minor victory level !!! Is the casualty points are at 0, this is a draw; if the rebel have 1 point = major victory and if they have -1 point = major defeat. Very hard for the nerves and the Yankees are outnumbering me 3 to 1... help !

Lt. Col. Harold Lajoie 3/2/I/AoM, CSA.

General Mallory's suggestions sound great. Especially given the large maps in the new HPS games, it would make for some very exciting possibilities.

So who can setup this here shindig? I'd love to play a full campaign with no known points, only our own losses. We could still have the box to show Vicotry points, but it would only show your own losses, ?? for enemy losses, and ?? for victory level. Only after the battle ended by running out of turns of via a termination bid would the end result be known to either oppenent, perhaps...

Regards,
Lt. Col. Alan Lynn
3rd Battery "Jacksonville Greys"
4th Div, II Corps, AoA
God bless <><

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by ALynn</i>
<br />General Mallory's suggestions sound great. Especially given the large maps in the new HPS games, it would make for some very exciting possibilities.

So who can setup this here shindig? I'd love to play a full campaign with no known points, only our own losses. We could still have the box to show Vicotry points, but it would only show your own losses, ?? for enemy losses, and ?? for victory level. Only after the battle ended by running out of turns of via a termination bid would the end result be known to either oppenent, perhaps...

Regards,
Lt. Col. Alan Lynn
3rd Battery "Jacksonville Greys"
4th Div, II Corps, AoA
God bless <><

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Col. Lynn,

Thanks for the support. (Even us CoA's need attaboys every now and then [:D]!)

Now that I think about it, though, as the game is progessing maybe our own losses should even be shown as '??'. How many generals in the civil war actually had a count of their own casualties until the battle was over?

As to who has the knowledge/skills/time to set up an option like this, I think it would take an engine change to automate it, so we'd be dependent on Mr. Tiller. I expect he has higher priorities. Maybe some day.


Your humble servant,
Gen 'Dee Dubya' Mallory

David W. Mallory
ACW - General, Chief of the Armies, Confederate States of America & Cabinet Member
CCC - Sergeant, Georgia Volunteers, Southern Regional Deaprtment, Colonial American Army

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by dmallory</i>
Now that I think about it, though, as the game is progessing maybe our own losses should even be shown as '??'. How many generals in the civil war actually had a count of their own casualties until the battle was over?

Your humble servant,
Gen 'Dee Dubya' Mallory

David W. Mallory
ACW - General, Chief of the Armies, Confederate States of America & Cabinet Member
CCC - Sergeant, Georgia Volunteers, Southern Regional Deaprtment, Colonial American Army
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Perhaps they could be displayed as increments of 1000 with 1??? or 2??? so we just have a rough idea, which a field commander could know from reports by his generals. Or perhaps they could have a range of + / - 10% or something like that so we can't even be sure how close that number really would be, which would be even better...

Regards,
Lt. Col. Alan Lynn
3rd Battery "Jacksonville Greys"
4th Div, II Corps, AoA
God bless <><

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Bill Peters</i>
<br />There is a victory dialog screen? Really?

I lose so many battles I quit looking at it.

That is .... unless I am playing Ernie! [:p]

Col. Peters, 3rd Brigade
2nd Cavalry Division, II Corps, AoA

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Correct, then you KNOW I am going to win, so no need to check!!![;)]

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
LtGen, CO XXIII Corps, AoO

ACWGC Cabinet member
</b></font id="gold">

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Correct, then you KNOW I am going to win, so no need to check!!![;)]

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands

</b></font id="gold">

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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Them is fightin' words Yank. How about something short from one of the HPS games?

Lets see if you can put up where your hot air blows up! [:D]

Col. Peters, 3rd Brigade
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OOOOHH!! FIGHT! FIGHT!

Even odds at the beginning, double odds for the first one to do a turn while wearing a pink chiffon! First one to look at the victory dialogue forfeits! [:p]

Maj Gen Sean Turner
3rd Cavalry Division, "Yankee Thrasher"
I Corps
Army of Alabama