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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:41 am 
Gentlemen,

I am currently involved in a battle at Chickamauga and what happened to a poor Union artillery battery is the following: The battery was shot at from a neighbouring hex and the artillery crews (6 guns) were killed and left the battery uncrewed. Shooting at units in neighbouring hexes often kills nobody or just a few in the ranks and now the crews of a whole battery (how many men? 30-40?) killed by a single volley? Very hard to believe, but I have observed this before.

Another thing I find very annoying is the fact, that starting entrenching draws ADF. Moving, shooting, meleeing drawing ADF - ok, but entrenching? For what reason? Is it assumed, that the spades will be thrown and therefore ADF has to be regarded as an act of self-defence?

Thanks for your comments.

Regards

BG Thomas Borling

1/2/I/AotP
Robinson's Young Guard

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:41 am 
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Like everything about what happens in the game, a lot depends on the "distance" and "time period" youy view the results over.

Regarding the artillery crew, I offer the following interpretation. The crew took 100% casualties --- they were not necessarily killed, some where, most ran away for the duration of the battle. Whether the event is "reasonable" would depend on their previous losses and fatigue as well as the "perceived" size of the force firing at them. I forget the details of the BG system, but in the HPS system if you put yourself in the position of target unit and interpret the casualtites to indicate how big the firing unit is, with a fortuante (form the perspective of the firing unit) result, the target unit could easily assume it is 2 or more times as large then they really are -- that might make even the bravest crew take flight.

I did take a quick look at some old fire impact guides for the BG games and for muskets, no move, not disrupted, at range 1 -- 250 men always cause 1 Stength Point loss (25 men) and 450 cause 2SP -- for rifles you need 350 men to guarantee 1SP and 650 for 2SP.

So 400 boys with muskets and some favorable modifiers should be able to uncrew a few guns.

I rarely play BG these days, but don't recall noticing entrenchment drawing ADF -- must pay close attention to that detail.

Lt Gen Bob Breen
Commanding XIX Corps, AoS
"Defenders of the Right"


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 11:54 am 
I should have mentioned that it is Chickamauga for HPS Corinth.



BG Thomas Borling

1/2/I/AotP
Robinson's Young Guard

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 2:34 pm 
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I don't think entrenching can draw ADF. Never happened to me, for all I can say.

Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
Reserve Artillery, AoS
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:19 pm 
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In HPS system there seems to be a much higher probability of crews being killed by infantry fire. I haven't figured the odds but artillery crews are taken out quite regularly when they get within 3 hexes of a firing unit. Unfortunately unlike infantry taking fire or artillery being meleed, there are no partial results and no difference between a 6 gun battery being the target and a one gun.

For what it's worth I think HPS made a mistake in thier method of handling artillery for fire. Both small arms and counter-battery fire are to effective in the games. Even allowing for the interpretation that these hits really represent killing of horses and damage to limbers and guns, the "kill" rate of artillery is entirely to high in the games.

BG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
III Corps, AoM (CSA)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 5:51 pm 
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I'm currently playing a Shiloh campaign game and in the current battle have had several units fired upon when ordering them to build breastworks.

Gen. Ken Miller

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 2:26 am 
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Even worse than being fired upon while entrenching is being fired upon because of "figiting" I often activate a hex for melee but then decide to relook at the attack, Each time I activate whether I attack or not draws fire, About the third time and my troops are screaming-DECIDE!!![:p]



Field Lt. Tony Best


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 7:27 am 
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I have never understood what it took to uncrew a battery, either in
BG or HPS. I don't know why a crew couldn't be assigned to a battery/section and take casualties just like other units (with a negative density modifier of course). That way the crew could be routed rather than destroyed, and come back later to re-man the guns if they weren't captured.

I think the op fire is a wonderful thing but it needs serious tuning, as does the whole single phase concept. Not only can entrenching lead to op fire, but so can mounting or dismounting a leader. On the other hand, I have seen a stack of units march up to a stack of guns and take them out in melee with barely a shot being fired. How realistic is that? That's why a lot of us have gone back to multiphased play.


MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 10:06 am 
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My notes on artillery fire are that a gun loss due to counter battery fire are based on 1 gun = 50 men. The 50 comes from the stacking factor in the parameter file. The reason for high loses is that a 25 man hit on the fire results results in a random check for a gun loss at 50% probability. I suspect the crew casualties are calculated similarly but the whole crew is lost instead of a single gun. What I can't confirm is whether it uses the same 50 number in the check or not and if the fractional probability is also used.

BG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
III Corps, AoM (CSA)


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 1:06 am 
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I think some of the losses abstracty represent horse casualties and thus an inability to move the guns. There are examples of this in almost every major battle.

Of course an inability to move and an inability to fire are two different things but unfortunatly our system can't differentiate, hence the abstraction.

Gen. Doug Burke
XX/AoC/USA


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 6:09 am 
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Silencing a battery or encouraging a battery to pull out appears to be very variable, historically. It might occur within a couple of minutes of counter battery fire or take as long as 90 minutes. And while batteries might fight on with 30%, 40% or on one occassion 60% casualties, 10% was usually enough to persuade them to pull out. The above comes from Paddy Griffith. "Battle in the Civil War".

As for the game engine, while 50 men per gun is used for offensive fire, I think it is 8 men per gun for melee defense, so its not clear what number is used to determine if the guns are uncrewed or a gun is destroyed.

With regard to counter battery fire, I have found it most successful, in terms of destroying guns when the target unit is not at a higher elevation or the fire is on the flank.

I also recall, some previous comments, that the process for determining these results varies depending on whether the firer is artillery or infantry, but I could be wrong.

Lt Gen Bob Breen
Commanding XIX Corps, AoS
"Defenders of the Right"


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 8:29 am 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by eireb</i>
<br />Hi Men!

Just a li'll comment on Bob's last post - to begin with . . .

I have formed the Impression that the likliest casualty/damage inflicted on Arty tends to follow a pattern of:

The firer is artillery - either fatigue or Gun Loss.

The firer is infantry - - either fatigue or Crew Loss.

Of course both types of firer are subject to the dreaded "No Effect".

My own personal gripe is that - whilst I understand the concept, that we (the Gamer) see 1 volley/cannonade when we fire - this is the Game's representation of 20 minutes of Firing. However, if a Unit fires on a Battery, I find it inconceivable that all 50 men remain at their posts over 20 minutes, until everyone of them is killed/wounded.

Why not factor a condition in for Arty whereby after a "hit" of sufficient strength or after a number of hits building to a particular Fatigue level . . . the Guns become unusable - i.e. their aren't enough men to operate 4 guns, so the battery fires at 3/4 power . . and so on until the battery is uncrewed?

A similar condition could also be independently factored in regarding horses . . i.e. The Guns are sufficiently manned, continue firing while they still have ammo, but cannot be withdrawn from the Fray?

$0.02 worth from this side of the pond! [:D]

Pat.


Patrick G.M.Carroll,
Brigadier General.
Carroll's Corps,(II)
"Spartan Southrons"
Army of Georgia.
C.S.A.Cabinet Secretary

" When My Country takes it's rightful place, amongst the Nations of the World, then and only then, let My Epitaph be written. "
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Patrick G.M.Carroll,
Brigadier General.
Carroll's Corps,(II)
"Spartan Southrons"
Army of Georgia.
C.S.A.Cabinet Secretary

" When My Country takes it's rightful place, amongst the Nations of the World, then and only then, let My Epitaph be written. "


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 9:07 am 
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Hi, Eireb,

<i>the Guns become unusable - i.e. their aren't enough men to operate 4 guns, so the battery fires at 3/4 power . . and so on until the battery is uncrewed?</i>


I think what you are talking about is supposed to be covered by fatigue. I think when a battery reaches max fatigue, it is actually subject to rout. The problem is it takes a long time for the fatigue to accumulate.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA


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