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 Post subject: Shiloh and Protected Reinforcement Hexes
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 5:51 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 27, 2001 9:10 pm
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Location: New Orleans, LA
Officers,
I am playing the battle of Shiloh against General Niall Murphy. We are having quite the heated battle on day 1. It is near 1300 and my thoughts are wandering to securing the Landing and preventing Buell's troops from arriving.
I was wowndering if they will arrive across the Tennessee and use water movement to come ashore. If so, can they land anywhere or only in the clear hexes? I decided to look at the historical battle scenario, we are playing the campaign.
I was surprised to see that Buell's troops arrive at the Landing and the entry hexes are protected! I am stunned by this. What good is taking the Landing to the Rebel player if he cannot not prevent Yank reinforcements. For that matter, why should the Yank player try to defend that area if he is going to get his troops in there regardless. I think this is a serious flaw in the scenario and it ruins it for the Rebel player.
Please correct me if I am mistaken.
I will continue the fight against General Murphy regardless of the how and if Buell's troops arrive, but I now have to consider that taking the Landing may not be good enough.


LTG L. G. Bertolino
The Pelican State Brigade
Commander, Bishop's Corps, AotM


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2006 6:29 pm 
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Amen, brother! I looked at playing the Shiloh battle but refused for that very reason. The starting forces are about equal and you have no way to prevent either Lew Wallace or the whole Army of the Ohio from showing up. There are some what-if Shiloh scenarios where either the forces at Donelson are assumed to have escaped or Van Dorn's army shows up. You might stand a chance in one of those, although I haven't looked closely at them.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:08 am 
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Hi guys,

If you playing the latest version, the historical scn and almost all others have the VP hex located at (51,32), the reinforcement hex is (56,33) and only has a protected range of 3. You can freely take the VP hex without fear. To remove the protection altogether would have the same effect as blocking any reinforcement hex, it would give way to gamey tactics. But since Buell's army comes in piecemeal, a concentrated rebel army should have little trouble if deployed properly.

Rich


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:19 am 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Rich Walker</i>
<br />Hi guys,

If you playing the latest version, the historical scn and almost all others have the VP hex located at (51,32), the reinforcement hex is (56,33) and only has a protected range of 3. You can freely take the VP hex without fear. To remove the protection altogether would have the same effect as blocking any reinforcement hex, it would give way to gamey tactics. But since Buell's army comes in piecemeal, a concentrated rebel army should have little trouble if deployed properly.

Rich
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems to me that a properly deployed Rebel army should prevent Buell from crossing the river at all?


Regards,

Col. Alan Lynn
2nd Div, II Corps, AoA

Signal Corps, Assistant Editor

"The only accurate news is well researched history."

God Bless <><


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:48 am 
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Hi, Rich,

I see nothing at all gamey in the Rebs driving for Pittsburgh Landing to cut off supplies and reinforcements to Grant, and as I read the scenario, that is their only chance to win. As I believe was historically the case. I have not played this scenario, but I sure have played a bunch of others, and I'm missing the balance here. Of course, I always play multiphase with weak ZOC, and I know you are a dedicated single phase player. But the game has been out almost eight months now. Somebody must have played it. Did anybody win with the Rebs?

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:01 am 
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Well, in the games I've played, the rebs have won nearly every time, but I'm open to suggestion. So if I see that a large enough crowd feels the same as you, I'll consider removing the protection for that particular hex. So what are the official W/L stats? And did the protection status of P.L. make a difference??

Rich



<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mihalik</i>
<br />Hi, Rich,

I see nothing at all gamey in the Rebs driving for Pittsburgh Landing to cut off supplies and reinforcements to Grant, and as I read the scenario, that is their only chance to win. As I believe was historically the case. I have not played this scenario, but I sure have played a bunch of others, and I'm missing the balance here. Of course, I always play multiphase with weak ZOC, and I know you are a dedicated single phase player. But the game has been out almost eight months now. Somebody must have played it. Did anybody win with the Rebs?

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:43 pm 
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Location: New Orleans, LA
Sir,
I cannot comment in too much detail since my opponet and I are currently actively engaged in the fight. However, some more comments.
I think this is one of the very few historical battles where an unprotected entry hex would indeed be accurate. It would force the Yank player to fall back and defend that location at all costs.
I am playing vesion 1.02 and the entry hex and Objectice hex are near the river at 56,33.
I know that Buell comes in piecemeal, but he also comes in at night. He can land those fresh brigades after dark and they won't be touched until sunrise. Through in the arrival of Lew Wallace and the Rebel has a lot of fresh troops to deal with on two sides of the battle.
I am currently turning my opponent's left flank and prying him from the river. It is a shame that sometime soon, I will have to send a force to "watch my back".
Rich, I appreciate you taking the time to address this post and offer to protect or unprotect the entry hex.
I would offer a historical scenario in which the chance to build an entrenchment would be 0%, the entry hex would be unprotected, and the Yank player had two supply sources, one at the Landing and another on the road north to Crump's Landing.
Finally, I have played Shiloh many times. I like to play with rout limiting off to reflect the green armies. I have lost at Shiloh twice and have won about 6 times. One loss was using the BG system. The other against a fellow Rebel and a long time friend.
As an aside, I cut my teeth in this battle on SPI's Bloody April and an even earlier large hex Shiloh game. Both games took stragglers into account. Units moving in line had a chance of stragglers. Also, units which routed had a chance as well. Bloody April also incorporated the Yank camps and how the Rebel's looted them. Rebel troops could disrupt when then entered a camp. Just some ideas. I have no idea how roboust the game system is or John Tiller's willingness to tinker.
Respectfully,

LTG L. G. Bertolino
The Pelican State Brigade
Commander, Bishop's Corps, AotM


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:50 am 
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Hi,

So your W/L record is 6 and 2. Does that mean the rebels have won 6 times and lost twice?

Removing the protection is no problem, but I would like to get some more feedback. Currently the historical scenario has a zero percent entrenchment. Is supply a problem? Why would supply sources be needed?

In the games I've played, either the rebels won so big that Buell couldn't have helped, or the rebels were losing before Buell could be a factor.

In short, most games are won or lost before Buell can ever become a factor, but as I said, if it will make things better, I'll remove the protection.

I would like all protections to be removed and lets say that if the entry hex is blocked, that the arriving troops are delayed one hour and permitted to arrive at a hex that is within 5 or 10 hexes of the original hex.

Rich


Rich


<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Tulane83</i>
<br />Sir,
I cannot comment in too much detail since my opponet and I are currently actively engaged in the fight. However, some more comments.
I think this is one of the very few historical battles where an unprotected entry hex would indeed be accurate. It would force the Yank player to fall back and defend that location at all costs.
I am playing vesion 1.02 and the entry hex and Objectice hex are near the river at 56,33.
I know that Buell comes in piecemeal, but he also comes in at night. He can land those fresh brigades after dark and they won't be touched until sunrise. Through in the arrival of Lew Wallace and the Rebel has a lot of fresh troops to deal with on two sides of the battle.
I am currently turning my opponent's left flank and prying him from the river. It is a shame that sometime soon, I will have to send a force to "watch my back".
Rich, I appreciate you taking the time to address this post and offer to protect or unprotect the entry hex.
I would offer a historical scenario in which the chance to build an entrenchment would be 0%, the entry hex would be unprotected, and the Yank player had two supply sources, one at the Landing and another on the road north to Crump's Landing.
Finally, I have played Shiloh many times. I like to play with rout limiting off to reflect the green armies. I have lost at Shiloh twice and have won about 6 times. One loss was using the BG system. The other against a fellow Rebel and a long time friend.
As an aside, I cut my teeth in this battle on SPI's Bloody April and an even earlier large hex Shiloh game. Both games took stragglers into account. Units moving in line had a chance of stragglers. Also, units which routed had a chance as well. Bloody April also incorporated the Yank camps and how the Rebel's looted them. Rebel troops could disrupt when then entered a camp. Just some ideas. I have no idea how roboust the game system is or John Tiller's willingness to tinker.
Respectfully,

LTG L. G. Bertolino
The Pelican State Brigade
Commander, Bishop's Corps, AotM
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:45 am 
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Rich,

RE: "I would like all protections to be removed and lets say that if the entry hex is blocked, that the arriving troops are delayed one hour and permitted to arrive at a hex that is within 5 or 10 hexes of the original hex."

Is this alternative possible with the current engine? It is an option in some board games, but I didn't know it could be done with the software we have.

In most battles, in which reinforcements arrive over roads, this would be a viable alternative. However, my understanding was that steamboats couldn't land just anywhere they wanted to along the rivers due to the steepness of the banks. I think it would be preferable to allow Buell's army to arrive via the Crump's Landing road if Pittsburg Landing were occupied by the Rebels.

As for your suggestion of removing the protection hex from the reinforcement hexes, I'm for it. Of course, that's coming from a Reb! :-)


Your humble servant,
Gen 'Dee Dubya' Mallory

David W. Mallory
ACW - General, Chief of the Armies, Confederate States of America & Cabinet Member
CCC - Sergeant, Georgia Volunteers, Southern Regional Deaprtment, Colonial American Army


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 2:52 pm 
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I believe he was talking in terms of "engine changes he'd like to see." I know that is not possible in the EAW or Nap engines, and I'd be shocked out of my mind if it were possible in the ACW engine. The only reason I'm not sure there is that I've never used the ACW scn editor.

Major General Gary McClellan
1st Division, XXIII Corps
AoO,USA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:27 pm 
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Location: New Orleans, LA
Rich,
you are correct that I meant to say I have 6 wins as the Rebel and 2 losses as a Rebel as well.
I do want to commend the treatment of surprise. Disrupting the front line Yank brigades and fixing the rest gives the Yank a fighting chance. If the front troops are fixed, then they are almost guaranteed of being surrounded.
Supply is not a problem. I offered up supply sources as a means for the Yank to form a perimeter around the Landing and not be isolated.
we are fighting the rain version of the battle as part of the Campaign. The Yank can build entrenchments in this fight. I know because I took a terrible pounding trying to assault a line behind fences, entrenchement, and in woods while firing into the clear. I should have known better than to attempt that! Just call me Bragg!
I have been to the Shiloh battlefield 3 times. I think that Yank steamers woudl have been hard pressed to land troops anywhere but the Landing.
I beleive if the objective hex is in Rebel control, as in the last player to pass through it, then reinforcements should not allowed t be landed. I say this because in the Battleground game, Yanks could be landed as long as the hex was not occupied. The Yank gun boats would plaster the hex and I could not stop them from landing.
I really like the idea of unprotected reinforcement hexes and delayed troop arrivals.
Very Respectfully,


LTG L. G. Bertolino
The Pelican State Brigade
Commander, Bishop's Corps, AotM


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:04 pm 
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I'll remove the protection for P.L. with the next patch.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:40 am 
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[General Bertolino,

Re: "I believe if the objective hex is in Rebel control, as in the last player to pass through it, then reinforcements should not allowed t be landed."

I disagree. I think the Union reinforcements should be allowed to land if there are no Confederate units physically blocking the landing. Historically, had the Confederates taken the Landing, would Buell have known the Landing was not available unless the Rebs defended it? It wouldn't take much (a battery, a small regiment, a cavalry guard, whatever -- anything more than a single leader or supply wagon), but if the Landing was totally unoccupied why wouldn't the Federals use it?

Of course, the Rebels may be hiding enormous numbers of troops back in the woods as an ambush. That, as they say, would be for us to know and the Yanks to find out [:D] !


Your humble servant,
Gen 'Dee Dubya' Mallory

David W. Mallory
ACW - General, Chief of the Armies, Confederate States of America & Cabinet Member
CCC - Sergeant, Georgia Volunteers, Southern Regional Deaprtment, Colonial American Army


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