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 Post subject: Isolation Rules (I'm Livid)
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:02 am 
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Posts: 192
Location: USA
A fine Union Officer (and friend) and I are at Turn 62 of 225 in a scenario I designed. The scenario is call "The Potomac Battles" which uses the huge map in HPS Gettysburg that displays the Potomac River in all it's glory. Basically, the rebs approach from the left of the map and the yanks approach from the right of the map. The scenario developes as the commander of each side will need to decide on which side of the river he chooses to make his stand, pending of course if he wins the race to a particular ford or bridge. Several small battles can coexist thus the name "The Potomac Battles".

I won the race to the ford located at Hex 153,248 which is close to Dam No 4. I managed to get a One Corps across the ford on the first day and built breastwork during thr night. In short, my decison was to prepare for battle, entrenched, with the understanding that my back was against the river. So I have 30,000 plus men dug in stretching from Hex 174,250 across to Hex 153,226. So I wait and as the turns pass, the Yanks approach. We make contact and the next thing I know the turn is over and I have 30,000 plus men ISOLATED....AND DID YOU HEAR ME SCREAM......

So, yes the Isolated Rule was checked and I do understand ISOLATION. But how can a strong, entrenched line of 30,000 plus men stretched out over a huge portion of the map become ISOLATED this easily. MATHEMATICAL CALULATION I PRESUME.....What determines ISOLATION and is the lesson simply.....DO NOT FIGHT WITH YOUR BACK AGAINST THE RIVER EVEN IF YOU HAVE 30,000 PLUS MEN ON YOU LINE. Hell, I could build a city behind those guys....I just became river shy.....

So my strength in melee is divided by 4, my leaders are worthless and my artillery becomes out or low on ammo.....WHAT ABOUT MY BATTLE PLAN....

OK...I'm over it now and thanks for letting me vent, but I don'feel like finishing the battle....The battle has become NOT REAL.

Any suggestions on how to get 30,000 plus men UNISOLATED and not give an ADVANTAGE to the opposing side....



















Colonel R.E.Daley
1st Corps of the ANV
3rd Calvary Divsion,
3rd Brigade
"We are the Midnight Riders"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:15 am 
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Posts: 391
Location: USA
Recross the river.

Your obedient servant,

Lt Col Dwight McBride
1st Brigade ("The Regulars")
2nd Division/V Corps/AOP


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:15 pm 
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I have problems with the isolation rule also. Since Corinth you could avoid isolation if you had a supply source. I submit that if that is the case, supply wagons ought to work the same way a supply source does. But actually I don't like isolation because there were too many instances throughout history when units that were isolated would acquit themselves well. Think Spartans at Thermopylae or Foreign Legion at Camerone.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:21 pm 
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Location: USA, New Jersey, Ocean County
Not sure how the program calculates the path for the isolation check, but I assume one of those fords/bridges is behind your entrenched line, so I would suggest parking one unit on the ford/bridge -- that should convice the program to trace a path back to the map edge -- assuming the program is reb friendly it would "learn" to trace the same path for those other fine soldiers. If not, take it as a sign that the gods do not agree with your strategy!

Lt Gen Bob Breen
Commanding XIX Corps, AoS
"Defenders of the Right"


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 1:26 pm 
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I've seen it happen before where a ford or bridge is the only path to supply just never on such a grand scale.[:D] Sometimes the path finding logic will fix itself the next turn but I would definitely help it by putting some units on the ford/bridge so the path logic will look across the river.

The isolation rule helps force players to keep their armies together in a more historic style but unfortunately is still to rigid even with soft zones. Would be nice if the game engine enforced it as an accumulated affect taking 2-3 turns to become the full 25% penalty.

BG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
III Corps, AoM (CSA)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2006 8:46 pm 
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I had a similar problem as the Union at Shiloh when I was defending a shallow perimeter arouns the Pittsburgh Landing. My opponent (Gen Larry Bertolino) sportingly pulled back troops at one side of the perimeter so as not to fully surround me, and thereby removing the isolation

Lt. Gen Niall Murphy
4/2/VIII Corps, AoS


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 3:20 am 
In Peninsula I once had an artillery unit on an island in the river NE of Richmond and even though my Rebs held the left bank and there was a ford to the river from my bank and no way to cross over from the Yank side, that unit still became isolated due to the river...

Regards,

Col. Alan Lynn
2nd Div, II Corps, AoA

Signal Corps, Assistant Editor

"The only accurate news is well researched history."

God Bless <><


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 5:39 am 
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Location: USA, New Jersey, Ocean County
I think some the experiences show how "clever" the game engine is -- it does not only model the physical phenomena of isolation but rather the state of mind created by the opposing force!

Compliments to "Gen Larry Bertolino 'who' sportingly pulled back troops at one side of the perimeter so as not to fully surround 'Gen Neil Murphy', and thereby removing the isolation". I managed to isolate a British wing at Germantown (different war) -- I was not so generous, I eliminated them. I did offer terms, but they refused!

Lt Gen Bob Breen
Commanding XIX Corps, AoS
"Defenders of the Right"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 3:13 pm 
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Who started this post?

Well, I have had time to cool down and I have continued the game.(So what's another defeat)....And I had to remind myself that it is only a game. I'm going to try a few things and will report accordingly.

I am still river shy, so I guess my next battle which employs a river that could lead to isolation will be layed with the Isolation Rule not checked....


Colonel R.E.Daley
1st Corps of the ANV
3rd Calvary Divsion,
3rd Brigade
"We are the Midnight Riders"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2006 6:17 pm 
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Yes, That was very sporting, but I'm not sure why the isolation is perceived as illogical.

If your back is against a river and your surrounded on all sides, why shouldn't you be isolated??

Rich



<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Niall Murphy</i>
<br />I had a similar problem as the Union at Shiloh when I was defending a shallow perimeter arouns the Pittsburgh Landing. My opponent (Gen Larry Bertolino) sportingly pulled back troops at one side of the perimeter so as not to fully surround me, and thereby removing the isolation

Lt. Gen Niall Murphy
4/2/VIII Corps, AoS
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 4:31 am 
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Hi, Rich,

Normally I would agree with you, but at Shiloh the Yanks had a line of communication and supply at Pittsburgh Landing. Probably in game terms there ought to be a supply source at Pittsburgh Landing IMHO.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Apr 15, 2006 9:07 am 
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Having already owned the ford (that gets me to the other side of the river) prior to the Isolation. I proceeded to position units in hexes on both sides of the ford hoping that this might connect the logic path and rid me of the Isolation. This did not work. So my guns continue to run out of ammo.....One melee and the game is over....

I agree that if your back is against a river or body of water and you are surrounded then yes, you should be Isolation. But not when you own a ford in back of you!

Colonel R.E.Daley
1st Corps of the ANV
3rd Calvary Divsion,
3rd Brigade
"We are the Midnight Riders"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2006 4:59 pm 
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If there aren't any objections, I'll put one there with the next patch.


Rich



<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by mihalik</i>
<br />Hi, Rich,

Normally I would agree with you, but at Shiloh the Yanks had a line of communication and supply at Pittsburgh Landing. Probably in game terms there ought to be a supply source at Pittsburgh Landing IMHO.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 12:50 am 
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So is mainbtaining a "supply source" the key to not being isolated when my rebs have an open path back to Dixie? And also, am I correct that if the Isolation Rule is not checked, this issue go's away? I can really live without the rule.....

Colonel R.E.Daley
1st Corps of the ANV
3rd Calvary Divsion,
3rd Brigade
"We are the Midnight Riders"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2006 6:24 am 
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I have checked and it appears the isolation rule is optional. If it isn't checked, there are no consequences of isolation. I don't know how the game will play without isolation penalties, but I think overall it will be truer to history. Surrounding an army even without isolation will still cause problems, but it won't allow a tenuous line of ZOCs that the army can't even see to render it practically defenseless. BTW, I think the Panzer Campaigns series deals with isolation better, but those are designed on a whole different scale. My thanks to Rich Walker for considering my suggestion about the supply source, but I wish there was more feedback from others on suggested changes. Also, imho, that ford to your rear ought ot have negated the isolation.

MG Mike Mihalik
1/III/AoMiss/CSA


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