ACWGC
* ACWGC     * Dpt. of Records       * CSA HQ    * VMI    * Join CSA    
   * Union HQ    * UMA    * Join Union     ACWGC Memorial
CSA Armies:    ANV    AotW
Union Armies:    AotT     AotC      AotP      AotS     Union Army Forums
     Link Express
American Civil War Books, Magazines and Games for sale (See other items)
Club Forums:     NWC    CCC     Home Pages:     NWC    CCC    ACWGC
It is currently Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:59 am

All times are UTC - 5 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Mixed Organization Penalty Option
PostPosted: Wed Nov 18, 2015 4:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:20 pm
Posts: 1152
Location: USA
Just wanted to touch base with everyone to see if they've had good or bad experiences with the JTS/HPS Mixed Organization Penalty Option. That option states the following:

Select Mixed Organization Penalty to have a -1 morale modifier applied to units in the same hex with units from different brigades.

The rule became available within all of those games (2.0) released at the JTS site and updated on the HPS site about one year ago, time to have reached some thoughts about both its intent and effectiveness. I'd like to hear whether you think the rule should be used and why or why not. And if you believe the rule to be appropriate, is it effective enough? Is the penalty too soft or too hard?

Do you believe that the rule is unbiased to each side.

_________________
General Jos. C. Meyer,
Union Army Chief of Staff
Commander, Army of the Shenandoah
(2011-2014 UA CoA/GinC)


Image


Top
 Profile Send private message E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mixed Organization Penalty Option
PostPosted: Fri Nov 20, 2015 1:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:26 pm
Posts: 529
General Meyer--
I think it is a very good rule. There should be a penalty for using a mix of units, and a reward for attacking with units all from the same brigade. I have not seen a situation where, say, I attacked with a mixed bag and failed, and it jumped out at me that it failed because of my sloppy deployment. Nor have I noted that I haver been rewarded for making a proper attack. Which leads me to think the rewards and penalties should be greater than they are. But all of these pluses and minuses seem to be very subtle, such as attacking a flank, or not fighting shoulder to shoulder. A combination of all the right measures should allow an attack to roll right through, even at attack at 1-1 odds.
John

John Ferry
LTC 2/20th A/C


Top
 Profile Send private message E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mixed Organization Penalty Option
PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:40 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:32 am
Posts: 1642
Location: USA
It isn't obvious how much effect it is having unless you turn on the detail battle reports and look through the numbers. I like the idea though and usually try hard not to mix my regiments when the option is on. Since it is a morale modifier rather than a combat modifier (like 10% reduction in combat) it doesn't occur except when units are at the bottom of their grouping for morale (Morale of B or D) or when a morale check is called for. Probably would work better if it was both a morale and combat modifier.

The only type case where it might cause a balance problem in the game is in battles like Antietam where the Rebel units are so small you have to sometimes make large stacks for them to even be able to fight requiring multiple brigades to get enough strength.

_________________
General Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
AoT II/1/3 (CSA)


Top
 Profile Send private message E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mixed Organization Penalty Option
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 2:22 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:20 pm
Posts: 1152
Location: USA
Quote:
A combination of all the right measures should allow an attack to roll right through, even at attack at 1-1 odds.


John, am I to assume that you qualify your last statement within the parameters of each side occupying equal ground?

Quote:
The only type case where it might cause a balance problem in the game is in battles like Antietam where the Rebel units are so small you have to sometimes make large stacks for them to even be able to fight requiring multiple brigades to get enough strength.


And Kennon, I would certainly agree that the rule's application in actions such as Antietam might prove to be unfairly debilitating for the CSA player. Yet, of what are we actually speaking? Historical accounts of inadvertent mixing of infantry brigades for both sides almost always speak of the disruption and confusion that ensued. And it was apparently a common bane for each side, right on through to the final year of the war.

Would the automatic disruption of all units in a mixed stack be a more appropriate penalty?

_________________
General Jos. C. Meyer,
Union Army Chief of Staff
Commander, Army of the Shenandoah
(2011-2014 UA CoA/GinC)


Image


Top
 Profile Send private message E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mixed Organization Penalty Option
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 9:43 am 
Offline

Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 4:32 am
Posts: 1642
Location: USA
You have to remember the scale and size of regiments. When regiments are less than 50 men strong having regiments from two different brigades in the same hex which is 120 yards wide doesn't mean they are really mixed. In those sizes they could be fully deployed in line with proper alignment. It just means one brigade is adjacent to the next. As opposed to two 300-400 man regiments in the same hex which implies one is behind the other. If these were from different brigades there would be intermingling which deserves a penalty.

The ideal rule would take into account stacking as well as organization. Antietam is just one of the few battles where a large number of the regiments on one side were little more than companies.

_________________
General Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
AoT II/1/3 (CSA)


Top
 Profile Send private message E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mixed Organization Penalty Option
PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2015 8:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2003 9:52 am
Posts: 952
Location:
The nice thing about optional rules is that they are optional. Just don't use it for Antietam if it skews the game.

The downside of optional rules is that it makes it impossible to balance a single scenario for every optional rule combination.

For the mixed organizational penalty, I think it has some historical validity, but I would think much more for the offense than the defense.

Yet as I write this, I am trying to think of situations in the war where mixing units from different brigades affected results, and am drawing a blank.

_________________
MG Mike Mihalik
Forrest's Cavalry Corps
AoWest/CSA


Top
 Profile Send private message E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mixed Organization Penalty Option
PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2015 5:22 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:26 pm
Posts: 529
Mike
Probably you can't think of any because --for instance:
"Rodes--take a regiment from each brigade in Second Corps and attack those Yankees at Chancellorsville" just hardly ever happened.
Stonewall took the time to organize his three divisions in three successive waves for his assault on Howard. Not many of us would do the same.
(Beware the amateur--he is more dangerous than the professional.)
Disorganized, piecemeal attacks by rallied survivors of unsuccessful attacks almost always failed, because the god of War used the rule.
John Ferry
LTC 2/20th Corps


Top
 Profile Send private message E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mixed Organization Penalty Option
PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2015 4:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 22, 2001 7:20 pm
Posts: 134
Location: USA
I think it is a good rule, but the implications are more from a defensive standpoint. What would make it an even BETTER arrangement, in addition to what exists, would be the following: Any attacking unit stacked with a unit from a different brigade suffers a -10% reduction in any offensive fire and a 1-level temporary drop in Morale prior to any Melee. This, of course, would require changes to the game engine, but it could be added as an optional rule.

_________________
MG Robert Frost
Army of Cumberland


Top
 Profile Send private message E-mail  
 
 Post subject: Re: Mixed Organization Penalty Option
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:35 pm
Posts: 104
Location: USA
Allow me a late entry, please.
Seems to me if the mixed units each had its own officer and they were under command control little change would result in the function of said units. Being of the gray tilt of course I am prejudice towards mixed small units.

_________________
With Highest Regards;
Allan Hovey
Army of Tennessee, CSA
Commanding


Top
 Profile Send private message E-mail  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: