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PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 11:00 am 
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Howdy Folks!

Now I only have Overland, Gettysburg and Atlanta but I think these comments may apply to all. I was waiting to see what the new GB update had to offer.

In Campaign GB, why cannot Supply wagons travel at 1 MP/hex on a road? In Overland it's 1 hex on a road. Just like some clarification.

What is the basis for a -20 ranged fire factor for firing uphill? I surely would like to know. Have any of the game designers ever fired gun, let alone a civil war era gun?

In Overland, why is there a -10 for Offensive fire across a stream/creek? How does firing across a waterway effect accuracy?

Moving up hill effects movement and melees, not fire of the troops.

Interested to see the response.

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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 11:25 am 
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Hi, General,

In my Gettysburg scenarios I have modified the PDT so that road movement for wagons costs just 1.

There is a lot I disagree with in HPS Gettysburg but until a better design comes along that's what we have. I am not a programmer.

I know occupying the high ground has been a military axiom throughout history. I have fired modern rifles but not ACW era weapons.
I believe it would be easier to hold a site picture with the barrel angled down than with a barrel angled up but that is theory. Most of
my shooting was level, although the first deer I killed was downhill. With a WWII Japanese army rifle my dad had brought back from the Pacific.
The last thing on my mind at the time was whether shooting downhill was easier. But I believe there is at least a psychological advantage in holding
the high ground.

You'll have to ask John Ferry why firing across a stream or creek has a negative modifier. I did check the stream modifier, and it doesn't seem to work unless the
defending unit is adjacent to the stream hexside.

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PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 7:26 pm 
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As for the stream/creek, I suppose that this simulates that along them there were brushes, trees, etc. so that there are obstacles that hinder sight & fire. And do not forget the -10% is the effect on the fire value, that is not a question of pure accuracy but what of the fire dished out is received on the other side.

As for the fire uphill, I' not sure why it should be as easy to fire uphill as level, my guess is that the uphill position makes a smaller target compared to level. You do not expect a regiment to stand in a way that makes them full targets from head to toe instead of utilizing the high ground to go "hull down" at least partially?

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PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 9:03 am 
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Howdy!

I'll wait for a few more comments.

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PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 9:24 pm 
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It's my understanding that the designers have had some leeway and the Gettysburg designer wanted the movement of supply wagons limited. Since then, I have heard that the designer no longer is involved with JT/HPS designing and accordingly no changes were made to certain parts of the Gettysburg Campaign series, to include changing the movement of the wagons. However, it is a new day and time and that should be resolved in the near future. As much as I have disliked that slow movement of supply wagons, it has taught me some real life lessons. Whenever something or someone is creeping along, I remember those supply wagons and that eventually they get to where I need them. Taught me patience (but lesson learned a long time ago and I definitely vote for speeding them up).

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 9:24 am 
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Howdy Folks!

Here are a few more comments for discussion. Regarding BG Supply wagons, the original "parameter data" chart showed 1 MP/hex for Pikes and Roads, and 2 MP/hex for trails. That was never the case. Why bother securing a good road system if your Supply units cannot possibly keep up, or even close? Infantry travels more than twice as fast and Cavalry four times faster? Apparently the "Game Designer" never played a Campaign game. It is mid afternoon of our second day and I have yet to get one supply wagon from the western side of the map more than 3/4s away across to the east.

I'll rant more a bit later.

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 12:37 pm 
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Maybe someone knows the historical performance of the supply wagons.
From the description it sounds too slow but is it really to slow?

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 9:23 pm 
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Weather.

If the weather is fine, then let me roll;
But if the weather turns, then the wagons should crawl - even on a pike they should be slowed

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PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 10:18 pm 
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“A government wagon, drawn by four horses, over good roads, ought to carry
2,800 pounds avoirdupois, and make an average distance of two and a half miles
per hour.”-N. S. Dodge QM 119th NYV in Hints on Army Transportation

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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 9:19 am 
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Howdy Mike!

Thanks for the insight. According to my calculations, with each hex at 125 yards (or 375 feet) across and the Supply wagon moving 30 hexes per hour, that is 11250 feet or 2.13 miles/hour. Quite close to N. S. Dodge's 2.5 MPH. However, according to the game, that rate of advance can be accomplished by traveling over roads, trails, or open ground. You do get the "elevation" advantage while on a road or trail, but...

I reckon my point is, why is their a Road benefit of 1 MP/hex in one game and not the other?

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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 10:04 am 
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Howdy!

Now here is something I always wanted clarified. Why is there a -20 penalty for firing uphill?! I always thought the designers believed firing uphill was inaccurate and went with the flow. But now think the designers haven't a Clue. Movement uphill or attacking uphill has some disadvantages or advantages, but not ranged fire.

If the root of the penalty is actually ballistic, it is mistaken.

Mihalik, Shooting up hill or downhill doesn't make a difference unless you are a sniper at 500 yards. That is my point. A modern gun has a flatter trajectory. The old tymers have some play.

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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 12:32 pm 
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LGen Harney wrote:
Howdy Mike!

Thanks for the insight. According to my calculations, with each hex at 125 yards (or 375 feet) across and the Supply wagon moving 30 hexes per hour, that is 11250 feet or 2.13 miles/hour. Quite close to N. S. Dodge's 2.5 MPH. However, according to the game, that rate of advance can be accomplished by traveling over roads, trails, or open ground. You do get the "elevation" advantage while on a road or trail, but...

I reckon my point is, why is their a Road benefit of 1 MP/hex in one game and not the other?

Hi, General,

The reason road benefits vary between games is that there have been different designers for some of the games. Each has their own preconceived notions that they have incorporated
into their designs. Check out the variety of weapons data for the same weapons in the various pdts. I'm sure it was a decision JT made because he was spread thin creating all kinds of
game engines for all kinds of historical periods.

LGen Harney wrote:

Howdy!

Now here is something I always wanted clarified. Why is there a -20 penalty for firing uphill?! I always thought the designers believed firing uphill was inaccurate and went with the flow. But now think the designers haven't a Clue. Movement uphill or attacking uphill has some disadvantages or advantages, but not ranged fire.

If the root of the penalty is actually ballistic, it is mistaken.

Mihalik, Shooting up hill or downhill doesn't make a difference unless you are a sniper at 500 yards. That is my point. A modern gun has a flatter trajectory. The old tymers have some
play.


General,

That is something you will have to take up with the designers. Don't know if the penalty is based on ballistics or just a device to make high ground as sought after in the game as it was historically. It would be nice to have web references either way.

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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 1:01 pm 
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I always thought that this uphill/downhill thing was due to the natural proclivity of the common infantryman of the period to jerk the trigger, causing the barrel to pull upwards. How many times have we've read about line officers cautioning their men to aim low, or hearing about complete volleys passing overhead? Holding a .58 Springfield on target from the offhand position is not such an easy thing, especially when you're trying to get off 2-3 rounds per minute. And there's truth in the statement that the uphill targets behind a crest are more difficult to hit, since they can present a more hidden target.

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Commander, Army of the Tennessee
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PostPosted: Sat May 26, 2018 1:10 pm 
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MG Mihalik is very right here, it was always up to the designers to set the PDT values they thought should be used. So if one game has them at 1MP/hex and another at 2MP/hex it was surely a designer decision, but even if the games are from the same designer he may just have changed his mind about the movement rates, maybe just out of play balance reasons or other game related reasons and not out of a historical reasons.

Anyhow Rich said that the weapons values will be the same for all games and that the next updates will bring the old game up to this.
Maybe Rich should be asked if movement points and other PDT values will also be set to a standard that makes them equal over all games.


As for up hill fire, it's surely not only ballistic that played role here but for some part it did:
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/ebexp ... 5th/33.cfm

Together with other factors, like those that General Meyer mentioned, we end with the modifier.
One must also see that this is a modifier for all weapon fire, that means short range shotgun fire, medium range rifle fire and long range artillery fire, so this modifier is also a compromise to cover them all.

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PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2018 7:57 am 
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Howdy All!

Quite interesting. Love the discussion.

I see that the consensus is that Supply wagon travel is arbitrary and capricious. Up to the game designer, so be it.

Regarding the -20 penalty for "uphill" shooting I have seen no argument other than the Designer "Said So". Hecht's post and link prove that. Joe, you are mistaken concerning your theory about troops "jerking triggers".

In my opinion, there should be no penalty for ranged fire uphill. And as a compromise, there should also be a -20 for downhill fire.

One last question, why does this also apply to artillery?

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Lt. Gen. Rob (Festus) Harney, Commanding
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