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 Post subject: King of the Hill Tournament
PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 3:43 pm 
This thread has been created for discuission of Gen Tombesi's King of the Hill Tournament http://tombesis.interfree.it/ hopefully by the members who are actually playing in it [:D].

The tournament takes a whole new approach and is necessarily experimental. Gen Tomesi welcomes feedback so that the system can be fine tuned.

I suggested a forum approach so that we can see what one another thinks and discuss our suggestions. As well, in answering questions Gen Tombesi will not have to repeat himself with each of us.

I'll start with noting that I think Simone has created something really great here. The core concept and mechanics are sound and straightforward. The mechanics for building your forces as you go gives the feel of a campaign, but a significant loss at one point will not doom a player to being cannon fodder ever after. At this stage the forces are quite small and the games move ahead at a rapid clip. All in all I think this has the feel of an unpolished gem.

However, I do have 2 suggeestions for improvement:

1) The maps are large and the forces small. In my current match we began with no LOS to one another and I devised a fiendish plan to annhialate my opponent. For some strange reason Jim Gallup most ungraciously chose not to be where I thought he must be [:(!], and I spent almost the first 1/3 of the game just trying to find him. Now that I have located him it is taking a great deal of time to move up to where he actually is.

Suggestion i) placement in LOS of at least some units, OR ii) increase game length 1/3rd for manuever and recon.

2) Victory conditions. Currently you must have the higher score AND destroy a minimum % of the enemy force; 20% for a minor, 40% for a major. So, for a major victory an 8000 point force would have to destroy:

3200 points of an 8000 point force
1600 points of a 4000 point force
800 points of a 2000 point force

The smaller the force you attack, the easier it is to gain a major victory.

I feel strongly that this is backwards and the victory conditions should be easier for the smaller force, particularly as there are no geographical or other points. It is already easier to beat smaller forces, why should it also be much eaasier to call it a major victory??

I suggest that victory should depend on destroying a portion of the enemy force equal to or greater than a % of your own, as well as having the higher point score. Thus an 8000 point force would have to destroy 3200 points of the enemy, regardless of size. This would translate to:

20% of a force twice your size
40% of a force equal in size
80% of a force half your size
not possible against a force less than 40% your size.

Well gentlemen, what do the rest of you think???

Lt Col Mike Kaulbars Image
3rd "Freiheit" Division
VIII/AoS
Image

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:04 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:00 am
Posts: 444
Location: USA
To Lt. General Simone Tombesi,

Just signed up for the King of the Hill Tourniment and I had a few questions. How do you get started? How do I contact the reb on the other list (where are the email addresses located?) Which reb may I contact? I noticed I have fewer points than the other new recruits, Why? Once I contact my reb opponent do we need to register the game first? Any direction would help. Thank you.

Col. Joe Mishurda


Joe Mishurda, The Cast Iron Division
2nd Div. XXV Corp, AoJ


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 10:19 am 
Col. Mishurda,

First of all, welcome to the Hill.

The first thing, after a good read of the rulement, is to visit the "Player List" page.
There you will find all the other players' link to their HQs.
Inside each HQ page you may find their e.mails, their formations' OOBs and the value of these formations.

You may contact all the players you whish, but you may only have one active game per time, so give your preferences to "available" players, i.e. players not already enganged in a battle.

The points you see in the "Player list" are the exact value of your formation.
All the players have 2,000 starting points, but if you prefer to spend lesser than 2,000 points (for example, 1,900) you will find 1,900 as your formation's value in the "Player list".
This doesn't means you have lesser points, the 100 points you don't see there are stored in your reserve avaible to be used when you prefer.

As soon as you and your opponent decided a game, you need to register. You may use the authomatic form (if you are so lucky to see it works! [:D]), or you may send an e.mail to me.

I hope this will help you and all the new recruits of the Hill.


Lt. General Simone Tombesi
Army of the Tennessee
Hill Challenge's Master


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:46 pm 
   Gen. Sands,

   As per rule "IV - The Battles", I've to request to contact asap your adversary Gen. Staccioli.

   If you will fail to contact him within 7 weeks (Dec 31st, 2004), Gen. Staccioli will score a major victory in this game.

   Please, Cc your mail to me too.

Lt. General Simone Tombesi
Army of the Tennessee
Hill Challenge's Master


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 6:32 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 22, 2001 4:51 pm
Posts: 2795
Location: Massachusetts, USA
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by tombesis</i>
<br /> Gen. Sands,

As per rule "IV - The Battles", I've to request to contact asap your adversary Gen. Staccioli.

If you will fail to contact him within 7 weeks (Dec 31st, 2004), Gen. Staccioli will score a major victory in this game.

Please, Cc your mail to me too.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I emailed the first turn on 12/9/04. I am sending it, again, right now.

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
LtGen, CO XXIII Corps, AoO
Image
President, Colonial Campaigns Club
</b></font id="gold">


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 10:37 am 
We have problems with your e-mail Ernie.
Each time we send a message to you we receive an error from your server.
I'm happy to know you're still here.
Good luck for your game.


Lt. General Simone Tombesi
Army of the Tennessee
Hill Challenge's Master


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 12:57 am 
Gen. Sands,

   Both I and Gen. Staccioli have still problems with your e-mail.
   We are not able to get in contact with you because each time our e-mails are sent back by your server for unknown technical reasons.
   May you use, or activate, a different e-mail?
   If this problem goes on, I think that the game will be ended with a Draw 0 (zero) condition.
   I'm sorry for this, but I don't see any other possibility and this is the best solution for the game (each player will obtain the same points/awards).
   Please, let me know within a week if you may find any other way to get in touch with Gen. Staccioli.
   Thanks in advance.

Lt. General Simone Tombesi
Army of the Tennessee
Hill Challenge's Master


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 6:55 am 
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Joined: Tue May 22, 2001 4:51 pm
Posts: 2795
Location: Massachusetts, USA
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by tombesis</i>
<br />Gen. Sands,

Both I and Gen. Staccioli have still problems with your e-mail.
We are not able to get in contact with you because each time our e-mails are sent back by your server for unknown technical reasons.
May you use, or activate, a different e-mail?
If this problem goes on, I think that the game will be ended with a Draw 0 (zero) condition.
I'm sorry for this, but I don't see any other possibility and this is the best solution for the game (each player will obtain the same points/awards).
Please, let me know within a week if you may find any other way to get in touch with Gen. Staccioli.
Thanks in advance.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I again sent two different email addresses.

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
LtGen, CO XXIII Corps, AoO
Image
President, Colonial Campaigns Club
</b></font id="gold">


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 12:35 am 
I whish to draw your attention on this problem:
"Withdraw units from the map".

I read about Joseph Mishurda's topic in this forum and I am very interested in that, moreover I've been pressed for a solution from many players to this problem.

Ok, first of all let's see how the game's engine works.
The only thing offered by the Battleground games is a dialog window with the exited units' names and nothing else.

So there is no way to find how much men those units had when they exited the map.
My first idea was to calculate exited units as destroyed, but that problem prevented to me this choice.
As a matter of fact, I can't know how much points assign to the other player for an exited unit.
For example, if your regiment starting with 1,000 men and then reduced to 900 for some loss, exits from the map, then I can't know if it exited at full strenght or at reduced strenght and for this I don't know how many points to assign to it.

A different solution, submitted by Jerry Wells say that whenever a player exits from the map all his units he authomatically lose the game.
But a smart player may find easier to exit all his unit but one, or but a little amount of them and conceal them in a hex far from the enemy sight... and with this tricking the rule.
So again we have a very difficult situation that leaves opened the door to a lot of dangerous discussions among players and among players and the game master.

An alternative solution could be to assign an authomatic defeat to any player exiting AT LEAST ONE of his unit.
A very drastic solution for this problem, but easier to apply.

At this time I've no better solutions in my mind, so please, if you have something to suggest on this subject feel free to reply to this post!


Lt. General Simone Tombesi
Army of the Tennessee
Hill Challenge's Master


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 4:30 am 
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Joined: Tue May 22, 2001 4:51 pm
Posts: 2795
Location: Massachusetts, USA
In tournament play, it would be completely acceptable to state:

"No units may be withdrawn from the map. Any player that does so, loses the game, his entire force and starts over again."



<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
LtGen, CO XXIII Corps, AoO
Image
President, Colonial Campaigns Club
</b></font id="gold">


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2004 6:49 am 
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Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:34 am
Posts: 111
Location: USA
I wouldn't mind to see my opponent retreating his units during a battle. especially at the begining of the tournament with all those army more ready to run than fight [:)]

<font color="green">
<b>Col. David Guégan</b>, Brittany Volunteers,
Artillery Division,
XXth Corps,
<b>Army of the Cumberland </b>
</font id="green">
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:13 pm 
*** *** Minor Rule Change *** ***

Rule III. The Player List.

This is the list of the players partecipating to the Challenge in order of ranking. Here you may find their names,
their e-mail addresses and a brief summary of their previous fights.
You may contact any listed player and challenge them to a battle, but you may have only one active battle at a time.
<u>Exception:
If your adversary declares he will not be able to play for a long period of time, for example during holidays time, you
may suspend that game and start a new one. The old game may be completed as soon as your old adversary is able
to continue it.</u>
If you see an Engaged flag in the Available cell of a officer, you can't start a challenge with him before the ends of
his current game.
Moreover, you may engage only one officer of the other formation.



Lt. General Simone Tombesi
Army of the Tennessee
Hill Challenge's Master


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 6:17 pm 
After thinking about is some... I think a penalty, say 100 or 150 points for each unit exited would help. This would reward a poor soul for successfully getting his men off the board rather than being annialated (I was there in my first game with Ax) but still give some reward to the pursurer. Also, a player who exits any units could do no better than a draw.
Jerry Wells, Texas Ranger Division, AoG

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by tombesis</i>
<br />I whish to draw your attention on this problem:
"Withdraw units from the map".

I read about Joseph Mishurda's topic in this forum and I am very interested in that, moreover I've been pressed for a solution from many players to this problem.

Ok, first of all let's see how the game's engine works.
The only thing offered by the Battleground games is a dialog window with the exited units' names and nothing else.

So there is no way to find how much men those units had when they exited the map.
My first idea was to calculate exited units as destroyed, but that problem prevented to me this choice.
As a matter of fact, I can't know how much points assign to the other player for an exited unit.
For example, if your regiment starting with 1,000 men and then reduced to 900 for some loss, exits from the map, then I can't know if it exited at full strenght or at reduced strenght and for this I don't know how many points to assign to it.

A different solution, submitted by Jerry Wells say that whenever a player exits from the map all his units he authomatically lose the game.
But a smart player may find easier to exit all his unit but one, or but a little amount of them and conceal them in a hex far from the enemy sight... and with this tricking the rule.
So again we have a very difficult situation that leaves opened the door to a lot of dangerous discussions among players and among players and the game master.

An alternative solution could be to assign an authomatic defeat to any player exiting AT LEAST ONE of his unit.
A very drastic solution for this problem, but easier to apply.

At this time I've no better solutions in my mind, so please, if you have something to suggest on this subject feel free to reply to this post!


Lt. General Simone Tombesi
Army of the Tennessee
Hill Challenge's Master
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Col. Jerry Wells
2nd Div. I Corps AoG
Texas Ranger Division


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 7:38 am 
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Jerry Wells</i>
<br />After thinking about is some... I think a penalty, say 100 or 150 points for each unit exited would help. This would reward a poor soul for successfully getting his men off the board rather than being annialated (I was there in my first game with Ax) but still give some reward to the pursurer. Also, a player who exits any units could do no better than a draw. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

An excellent suggestion for a balanced solution, although I hope that some day we can also incorporate raid scenarios where a smaller force's explicit mission is to do as much damage as possible and then get away.



Brig Gen Mike Kaulbars Image
3rd "Freiheit" Division
VIII/AoS
Image

Image


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 6:01 am 
After a long time spent to think if modify or not the rules for the problem of players leaving the field after inflicting minor damages to the other formation, and after have heard player's suggestions pro or against the modifications, I decided that for now there will be no modifications at all.

These are my thoughts on the subject:

First of all, I still prefer the actual system of points award which requires that two forces of nearly equal strenght meet on the field, instead of allow very unbalanced games.
This is because, thinking to the "grand campaign" development of this challenge, forces the players to climb the hill step by step, challenging one after the other, players with formations of similar dimensions.
That will make that Hill very high to climb, but that is exactly what I like... [:D]

Even if some player prefers games foughted up to the last man, a lot of them, or at least a good number of who expressed his opinion, say that this is not a real problem and the hit-and-fly tactic is always a war strategy that have sense on a battlefield.

If you combine all the previously opinions you may even obtain the scenario that Mike has more time suggested.
As a matter of fact, a little force may have some success applying the hit-and-run strategy for very unbalanced scenarios, with some minor success to obtain some minor success or at least a draw awarded by a good number of VPs.
This answer, at the same time, to Jerry request to have a limit to the Draw result that these scenarios may have.

So, after all, I think that the best result could be obtained with the minimum level of effort leaving the rules untouched in this field... or at least my minimum level of efforts! [;)]

Lt. General Simone Tombesi
Army of the Tennessee
Hill Challenge's Master


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