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 Post subject: CHEAT!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 4:26 pm 
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Posts: 414
Location: Ireland
A Subject that must be dealt with delicately.

This has NOTHING to do with any Battles/Manoeuvres that I am or have ever played in the ACWGC.

[?] It's just a subject that crossed my mind and I thought "Just what would the Membership Think?" [?]

Anyone got any opinions/answers to these questions?

You play against another and after a while suspect that He is cheating. Each Turn strengthens Your suspicions until You reach a point that You KNOW He is. [:(!]

You report your Thoughts to Your Chain of Command.

What happens next?

Is there an Official ACWGC policy?

What sanctions can/does the Club take against the Cheat?

Should the Club be allowed to take sanctions against a Cheat?

What would be a suitable "Punishment"?

What degree of Proof is required?

Do we just chalk it up to experience and not play against the Cheat again?

Does a Cheat's reputation precede Him?

As I have said . . . . just Curious. Obliged to those that will "Humour" Me and my curiousity. [:)]

Pat. [B)]


Colonel Patrick G.M.Carroll,
Commanding
II Corps,
Army of Georgia.
"Spartan Southrons"
C.S.A.

" When My Country takes it's rightful place, amongst the Nations of the World, then and only then, let My Epitaph be written. "


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:12 pm 
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Say Pat, speaking of cheating, when are you gonna let me finish cheating you out of victory at South Mountain?[:p]

Major General Don Golen
2nd Brig/3rd Div/ I Corps/
Army of the Potomac, USA!
"The Bucktails"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:44 pm 
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Location: Massachusetts, USA
This might be a good topic to raise on DW's thread on new rules at:
http://www.wargame.ch/board/acw/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8192

One option is not to play the person again.

<b><font color="white">What you do not want to do is to carry out the validation or accusations in the public forum. There are far too many factors to consider to always have definitive answers to a cheating inquiry.</font id="white"></b>

The club rules, as they now stand, do not address cheating, specifically, however, as a practical matter, instances of cheating are usually passed up the chain of command to the cabinet, which looks into the allegations.

The best policy for an individual to have is NOT to play that member again.

It would not be in the best interest of the club to make public the name(s)of any members SUSPECTED of cheating, IMO.

<b><font color="gold">Ernie Sands
LtGen, CO XXIII Corps, AoO
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ACWGC Cabinet member
</b></font id="gold">


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 6:50 pm 
Col. Carroll,

I have only had to deal with it once and pretty much nothing came of it. The accusing officer did send me the file and if it was not cheating then this person is the luckiest person I know. Pretty much the accusing officer was told to either end the match or finish it and just not play that officer again. I kept the accused officer's name and the game file so that if anymore accusations were made against him we could take it further. It has been a while though and to my knowledge nothing else has come up.

As Ernie stated I would never make public the names of the accuser or the accused. I don't think I even told my commander the names.

Lt. Gen. Chris Cross
Western Theater Commander
CSA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 7:50 pm 
In another club I'm in they recommended to pass on turns saved with your suspicions and kept it private. It's a hard thing to prove but in some cases they did prove immpossible combat results and in one case got the player to admit he had manipulated the game engine/files. This was with Talonsoft Campaign Series in one case. The end result was awarding the victim a major victory and a strong private tongue lashing for the guilty. But they weren't kicked out of the club, only warned that's what would happen the next time.

MajGen, 2/XIX/AoS
"Beer! It's not just for breakfast anymore!"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:10 pm 
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Posts: 873
Location: Somewhere between D.C. and the battlefield
In any case, I would be very careful to accuse somebody of cheating just because he gets some lucky combat results. I have seen a lot of things happen in the game--to *me* that is!--that seemed barely possible but still were.

As far as I know, it is practically impossible to "prove" cheating. All we can achieve is a pretty good guess. And that guess may be wrong.

Personally, I don't believe, nor will I ever, that any of my opponents cheat. If I would think that, I would start looking for proof, and that would just spoil everything. I don't believe winning a game can be that important for anyone that he would cheat--or that he would suspect his opponent of cheating.


Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
AoS


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 2:21 am 
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Posts: 133
Location: USA
I have not had any suspicions in quite a while but years ago I had a coupla cases where I thought the movement was being replayed. I always look at in the context of 40 or 50 turns where the cheater likely looks at his deed in the context of one turn.

And of course the cheater knows the deed being proven and the deed being obvious are not the same thing.

I would find it difficult to believe that with 500 members in the club there doesn't exist at least a tiny shred of game manipulation. The best course is just don't play these guys again. The upside of having 500 members of course is opportunities abound to finding quality opponents to play that you are comfortable with.

Gen. Doug Burke
XX/AoC/USA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 4:45 am 
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Gentlemen!

I must begin this reply with a minor apology for my tactics.

I deliberately entitled this Post "CHEAT!" for 2 reasons.

1. With a "Tabloid"/ "Trash "Newspaper" " headline Title, who could resist clicking onto it, with the interest of a gossiping Fishwife, hoping to catch a bit of Scandal and m'be sit back to read a good warring Thread of Charge, Denial and Counter-Charge?
2. Again with the title . . . some Members would think "OMG! This is not what the Club needs at any time - a war of words in the Public Forum, particularly on such a contentious Topic.

I felt that I might not receive any response to my questions, were I to just post an "ordinary" thread.

My genuine and sincerest apologies to Y'all if I disappointed Ye on Point 1 above or caused Ye temporary distress on Point 2. Neither was my intention . . . I was just angling for Your Attention. [:I]

Despicable . . . I know. I will attempt to find a suitable punishment for myself and will try my best not to enjoy it! Wellllll . . . . Not too much! [:p]

If Ye are annoyed with my tactics, p'raps I can assuage Your Ire with my raison d'etre for the Post in the first Place.

I do intend to bring this subject to Dee Dubya's Post on "Suggestions for the Rules Committee." However, I felt that it would serve the Club best, were I to survey the Members beforehand - rather than espouse my opinions to Dee Dubya. Then his work might bog down with the Trivia and nuances of each of the members' personal opinions.

I am pleased with the fact that so far two Cabinet Members, a Theatre Commander, an Army Commander and a former Army commander have responded. This IMHO is a good sign for our Club, in that people in "Positions of Responsibility" within the Club are paying attention to the boards and are addressing the Memberships concerns regarding good Governance of the Club.

My Thanks and Compliments Gentlemen to Y'all - one 'n' all! [8D]

To synopsis the replies so far:

The Common position would appear to be that;

1) Cheating is not very Common.
2) Where suspected - it is very difficult to prove "Without Doubt".
3) Because of this - any Cheating suspicions/allegations remain private.
4) The Chain of Command is the proper Channel to voice allegations.
5) There are No Official ACWGC sanctions against Cheats.
6) Two options are open to the Aggrieved Officer
a) Cease the Game forthwith and never play the Cheat again.
b) Finish the Game and never play the Cheat again.

There are two difficulties that I personally feel are important here.

Firstly . . . . the Cheat gets away "Scot" Free and can continue his career - either cheating or not - regardless of whether He gets caught or not. [}:)]

Secondly . . . . particularly where a large scenario or campaign is involved - there is No recompense for the Aggrieved Officer. His valuable playing time has been squandered to appease the Ego of the Cheat and He doesn't even have the Pyrrhic satisfaction of exposing the cheat or knowing that the Cheat has been penalised. [}:)] [:(!] [V]

This - IMHO - is wrong Gents!

But then again . . . . m'be I'm the only one that feels this way? [?]

I dunno . . . . hence my Post here.

With the intention of approaching the Rules Committee on this Subject, I would be greatly obliged if'n Ye would continue to respond. The more balanced, informed and widespread the replies are here, the better my proposal will be.

This request is directed to the people that have replied so far AND more importantly to those that (have) read it up to now. <b><u><font color="red"></font id="red"><font size="6">Everybody </font id="size6"></u></b>should take this opportunity to express a view.

If sucessful . . . I'll use this method to broach another "Bugbear" or two that I personally hold about Our Rules or the lack thereof.

Thanks for Your attention, time and contributions Men!

Keep 'Em Comin'! [:D]

Pat.

P.S. Don . . . Ye're a smart Git!!! LoL! [:p]
I have that File stored somewhere - if it ain't fossilised, I'll dig it up and send it to Ye sooooooooooon!


Colonel Patrick G.M.Carroll,
Commanding
II Corps,
Army of Georgia.
"Spartan Southrons"
C.S.A.

" When My Country takes it's rightful place, amongst the Nations of the World, then and only then, let My Epitaph be written. "


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 7:20 am 
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Posts: 410
Location: Canada
The big loser in cheating, is the cheater. He will never knows if he had the ability to really win the game by the rules. His false victory is worthless and HE knows it.





Lt. Col. Harold Lajoie 3/2/I/AoM, CSA.
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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 7:54 am 
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Posts: 392
Location: USA
I write this in behalf of all club newbies who are thinking right now: "Cheating? Like, by doing what? Jeez, I wish I knew specifically what they were talking about, so I knew what to watch out for."

The only hints I picked up from the previous posts in this thread are that one form consists of repeating, the other some kind of file manipulation.

I ask one of three things, so that I may recognize cheating when/if I encounter it: (1) List the ways, here and now. (2) Point me to an essay or site which lists them. (3) Email with the information. . . . Any of the three ways is fine. This is written to the veterans who often carry on broad conversations about things they are quite used to, never thinking that new people also need to understand. Thanks.

Sincerely,

Lt Dwight McBride
1st Brigade ("The Regulars")
2nd Division/V Corps/AOP


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:18 am 
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I'm titling this reply like this: WHY CHEATING IS BEST KEPT HUSH HUSH AND MOVED UP THE CHAIN OF COMMAND FOR DETAILED INVESTIGATION BEFORE MADE PUBLIC, A PERSONAL EXPERIENCE"

About 6 months ago, (give or take) I was accused of cheating by an officer. The issue in question was that some of his units didn't defensive fire in not one but two of our games. The accusing officer had never seen that before and when it happened not once but in a second game he came out and called me a yellow bellied @#$@)$)*(@$)*@)$*@)$* cheater.[}:)] Basically, his contention was that I must have manipulated the software so that I would get less defensive fire. I advised him to push it up the chain of command and have it investigated. I did this for two very important reasons. One, I wasn't cheating and I don't like someone smearing my name. Two, I was hoping someone could figure out why this was happening. The idea of me changing a program is beyond laughable as my wife will tell you. Why you ask, well I've spent two hours this morning trying, unsuccessfully, to get her darn computer to synchronize and accept her email account. Meaning, I can play games on computers but change software? Well, the idea is truly laughable. Secondly, detailed analysis showed that there is a small chance that units won't fire during defensive fire ( I believe it was 5% chance but I'm not sure on that) something I didn't realize as well. Note these were battleground games (BGC and BGG to be precise). I bring all this up to point out that moving allegations up the CoC is the proper course because there are times when allegations are groundless and reputations can be prevented from being sullied by putting them out into the mainstream. Also of note, subtle cheating is fairly frequent. I hate to say it but I can think of many games where movement was obviously redone to avoid traps. I'd say it's occured in at least 10% of the games I've played over the last 2 and a half years. It's hard to walk into a trap and accept that you should have known the unit was there and take your lumps. If I'm convinced an opponent is playing this, then I just avoid him (or her though I've never played a woman in this club and would welcome the chance). It's impossible to prove and I don't generally even get excited about it unless I see a continueing PATTERN of it over the course of one or two games not just isolated incidents ( which might just be me being a spoiled sport because my well planned trap didn't work, not that I would ever ever try and trap my opponents, who me?) Bottom line, the really subtle stuff just can't be proved and if you are convinced then that opponent needs to be avoided. The blantant stuff needs to move up the CoC and be checked out ( you'd be surprised, I counted one guy who won 21 straight melees against me, kind of freaked me out but I finally decided that I played just about the worst game of my life against him and that he was a lot better than me which left him with a rather large margin to work with, lol.) The system in place does work and I recommend using it. It favors saving reputations and minimzing internal club conflict at the expense of some cheaters slipping through the wires and needing to be dealt with on a personal basis (just avoiding them).

Major General Don Golen
2nd Brig/3rd Div/ I Corps/
Army of the Potomac, USA!
"The Bucktails"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 9:27 am 
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I agree with Harold, the biggest punishment to the Cheater is he knows he didn't win the game. There is very little else that can be done to prove or disprove cheating since the primary method of cheating is to replay the phase/turn/etc until you like the result or use the replay to "scout" for traps, etc.

For those a little quick to suspect cheating, there is no way to tell and you have to be careful about assuming bad luck is cheating. Back when it was board games and you could see the die roll, you still swore the gods of luck were against you when those snake eyes kept coming one after another.

The "scout" cheat does leave some signs but even it can be very missleading. You may think that they didn't fall into your carefully planned trap because they "scouted" it but they may have seen it coming because of LOS to some hex you moved through to get into position or they just assumed you would defend that area because it is a great place to set a trap.

The conclusion to draw from all this is its best to assume that no one cheats and enjoy the game. If you get into worrying about whether the other player is defying the odds or has second sight into your moves, you will mostly ruin the game for yourself.

BG. Kennon Whitehead
Chatham Grays
III Corps, AoM (CSA)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 10:07 am 
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Location: Somewhere between D.C. and the battlefield
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by KWhitehead</i>
The conclusion to draw from all this is its best to assume that no one cheats and enjoy the game. If you get into worrying about whether the other player is defying the odds or has second sight into your moves, you will mostly ruin the game for yourself.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

Well spoken.

As for General Golen's remark, "the really subtle stuff just can't be proved and if you are convinced then that opponent needs to be avoided", pray keep in mind that it's exactly the subtle stuff where it may be the case that it can't be proven because it just isn't cheating.

Take campaign games. Everybody knows they aren't encrypted. Everybody knows you could just open the file from the other end and see all your opponent's positions. Is it worth getting paranoid over it?

I have an opponent whom I play in two of our sister clubs, the NWC and the CCC. (In this here club, he happens to be one of my corps commanders, glad to see he's on the right side side at least here. [;)]) In an earlier Nappy game, I set an ambush for him that resulted in the elimination of an entire corps. In a more recent game of 1776, I set a very similar trap, and he didn't fall for it, even though I was confident he would. Now why in hell should I go and suspect that he is cheating? Sure, it would be perfectly easy to just open the campaign game file from the other side, see all my dispositions and avoid the trap. But why go for the unlikely explanation that he is cheating, when it is so obvious that he just learned from his earlier mistake?

Bottom line, there is usually a simple and logical explanation for everything that you could, if you prefer, also construct as cheating. Let's be reasonable.

Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
AoS


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:06 pm 
Ok, now I will tell a story of once here recently I wanted to cheat but only so that it would make it look like I wasn't cheating. I am fighting Lt. James Murphy at Antietam. Well me and my frozen arty had nothing better to do so we thought it would be fun to start firing at Lt. Murphy's arty. Well next thing I know almost every time a round gets fired we take a gun. I was on top of the world my arty was doing so great. Then a few turns later I got an email from Lt. Murphy and he says "my arty is taking a beating". Well sure enough alarms go off in my head. I was so scared that he thought I was cheating(which I don't think he does) that on the very next turn my arty took another union gun and I wanted to replay the turn and not fire any of my arty that phase. Well of course I did not and now Lt. Murphy has my boys on the run and a major victory all but wrapped up. Just thought I would share the story of the one time I thought about cheating.[:D]

For all those who may have read this differently than I meant it I never planed on cheating this is meant more as a joke.[:D]

Lt. Gen. Chris Cross
Western Theater Commander
CSA


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:21 pm 
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<blockquote id="quote"><font size="3" face="book antiqua" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by D.S. Walter</i>
<br />[quote]<i>Originally posted by KWhitehead</i>


As for General Golen's remark, "the really subtle stuff just can't be proved and if you are convinced then that opponent needs to be avoided", pray keep in mind that it's exactly the subtle stuff where it may be the case that it can't be proven because it just isn't cheating.


Gen. Walter, USA
<i>The Blue Blitz</i>
AoS


<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

I thought I made this point in my post but thanks for reiterating it more cohesively.[:)]

Major General Don Golen
2nd Brig/3rd Div/ I Corps/
Army of the Potomac, USA!
"The Bucktails"


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